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Let's entertain the possibility that China wasn't responsible for a lab leak, and that the zoonotic theory is true. Whatever the source, we know that the Wuhan

by imiric 4y ago

Let's entertain the possibility that China wasn't responsible for a lab leak, and that the zoonotic theory is true. Whatever the source, we know that the Wuhan wet market was a super-spreader event, which Chinese authorities concede. Following this, China grounded all domestic flights in January 2020, yet still allowed outbound international flights well into March 2020. Countries were left to ban flights from China on their own, which was a heavily politicized topic. We can say that we don't have enough information to condemn them and all other countries involved in the lab leak theory, but this one mistake is solely on China's shoulders. Had they grounded all outbound international flights, countries would've had more time to prepare, yet we saw the meteoric rise in cases worldwide in February.

solresol 4y ago
I have heard this version of events many times, but that's not how I remember it. I remember the only international flights allowed as being the repatriation flights. (e.g. when an overseas government organised for some non-Chinese who were in Wuhan to be able to come home). And presumably the return flights for planes that would otherwise have been stranded in Wuhan. FactCheck matches my memory... https://www.factcheck.org/2020/05/trumps-flawed-china-travel-conspiracy/ https://www.factcheck.org/2020/05/trumps-flawed-china-travel... Wikipedia for 23rd January says all outbound flights were banned: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_COVID-19_pandemic_in_January_2020 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_COVID-19_pande... And anyway, there's something wrong with the whole idea: if domestic flights were banned international flights were still allowed, wouldn't the people of Wuhan who wanted to get to Beijing just fly via Bangkok or Seoul? A ban on domestic-only flights wouldn't have achieved anything.
- imiric 4y ago
  Those articles are only referring to flights directly from Wuhan (ignoring the fact that neither Wikipedia nor the WHO are credible sources). International flights were still allowed from Beijing and other cities. From a NYT article[1]: > “I was surprised at how lax the whole process was,” said Andrew Wu, 31, who landed at Los Angeles International Airport on a flight from Beijing on March 10. > Sabrina Fitch, 23, flew from China to Kennedy International Airport in New York on March 23. > About 60 percent of travelers on direct flights from China in February were not American citizens, according to the most recently available government data. So these were not only repatriation, but commercial flights. The flight data also shows plenty of activity in February and March[2]. Whether those were only domestic flights or not is difficult to say, but clearly the shutdown wasn't total even domestically. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/04/us/coronavirus-china-travel-restrictions.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/04/us/coronavirus-china-trav... [2]: https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/the-chinese-roller-coaster-air-traffic-in-china-during-covid-19/ https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/the-chinese-roller-coaste...
  - fortuna86 4y ago
    Even so, from late December to 23rd January is a long time to still allow dozens of international flights everyday from Wuhan. Incompetence is ruled out because domestic flights were suspended right away.
taw567890 4y ago
[flagged]
- atleastoptimal 4y ago
  >there are claims that covid was detected in the US months before covid spread in Wuhan. I've heard claims it spread in China months before it's official detection in Wuhan, but not regarding the US. Source?
  - taw567890 4y ago
    It was detected in European samples (Spain, Italy) collected as early as March 2019 and is likely to have been spreading around the US by that point already. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-spain-science-idUSKBN23X2HQ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-spain-...
    - crunchyfrog 4y ago
      Those claims were never published in peer reviewed journals and were very likely just false positives: https://en.ara.cat/society/inaccurate-data-led-to-belief-that-covid-19-was-circulating-ahead-of-time_1_4095999.amp.html https://en.ara.cat/society/inaccurate-data-led-to-belief-tha...
- imiric 4y ago
  Ah, I see the thread has triggered CCP's mouthpieces. Please also tell us how the virus was found in frozen food imported from Argentina, Germany and India.
- fortuna86 4y ago
  > It's plausible since there are claims that covid was detected in the US months before covid spread in Wuhan. Not credible ones. In fact, the only people to bring this up are Chinese state media.
atleastoptimal 4y ago
> yet still allowed outbound international flights well into March 2020 I keep hearing this, but I imagine if they banned outbound flights they'd be criticized to this day for trapping people in the country during the outbreak
marcosdumay 4y ago
When planes were grounded, the virus was already all over the world for months. We just didn't know it at the time.
photochemsyn 4y ago
From what I've read, it seems the virus jumped into the human population around mid-November 2019 at the latest, and possibly early in October. https://www.reuters.com/world/china/first-covid-19-case-could-have-hit-china-oct-2019-study-2021-06-25/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/first-covid-19-case-coul... > "Another study by Australian scientists, published on Thursday in the Scientific Reports journal, used genomic data to show SARS-CoV-2 binds to human receptors far more easily than other species, suggesting it was already adapted to humans when it first emerged." I think the evidence is steadily getting stronger for Sars-CoV-2 being the result of the accidental infection of a lab worker with a CRISPR-modified bat betacoronavirus that was being tested in human cell lines and/or genetically modified lab animals. From there it spread globally by train and airplane.
beebmam 4y ago
The coverup of the origins of SARS-CoV-2 is a far worse crime than if it did accidentally leak from a lab. The coverup has done serious harm to our ability to understand how these diseases emerge at large scale in human populations.
- hgsgm 4y ago
  And to be clear, the coverup was at least a two-handed effort of Chinese Communist Party and Ecohealth Alliance (US-based nonprofit pandemic/virus research org that operated in Wuhan.) Ecohealth was all-in to prevent inquiry into the lab leak possiblity from the start, including ghostwriting/astroturfing an op-ed pretending there was scientific consensus against a lab leak.

by imiric 4y ago

solresol 4y ago

I have heard this version of events many times, but that's not how I remember it. I remember the only international flights allowed as being the repatriation flights. (e.g. when an overseas government organised for some non-Chinese who were in Wuhan to be able to come home). And presumably the return flights for planes that would otherwise have been stranded in Wuhan. FactCheck matches my memory... https://www.factcheck.org/2020/05/trumps-flawed-china-travel-conspiracy/ https://www.factcheck.org/2020/05/trumps-flawed-china-travel... Wikipedia for 23rd January says all outbound flights were banned: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_COVID-19_pandemic_in_January_2020 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_COVID-19_pande... And anyway, there's something wrong with the whole idea: if domestic flights were banned international flights were still allowed, wouldn't the people of Wuhan who wanted to get to Beijing just fly via Bangkok or Seoul? A ban on domestic-only flights wouldn't have achieved anything.

imiric 4y ago
Those articles are only referring to flights directly from Wuhan (ignoring the fact that neither Wikipedia nor the WHO are credible sources). International flights were still allowed from Beijing and other cities. From a NYT article[1]: > “I was surprised at how lax the whole process was,” said Andrew Wu, 31, who landed at Los Angeles International Airport on a flight from Beijing on March 10. > Sabrina Fitch, 23, flew from China to Kennedy International Airport in New York on March 23. > About 60 percent of travelers on direct flights from China in February were not American citizens, according to the most recently available government data. So these were not only repatriation, but commercial flights. The flight data also shows plenty of activity in February and March[2]. Whether those were only domestic flights or not is difficult to say, but clearly the shutdown wasn't total even domestically. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/04/us/coronavirus-china-travel-restrictions.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/04/us/coronavirus-china-trav... [2]: https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/the-chinese-roller-coaster-air-traffic-in-china-during-covid-19/ https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/the-chinese-roller-coaste...
- fortuna86 4y ago
  Even so, from late December to 23rd January is a long time to still allow dozens of international flights everyday from Wuhan. Incompetence is ruled out because domestic flights were suspended right away.

taw567890 4y ago

[flagged]

atleastoptimal 4y ago
>there are claims that covid was detected in the US months before covid spread in Wuhan. I've heard claims it spread in China months before it's official detection in Wuhan, but not regarding the US. Source?
- taw567890 4y ago
  It was detected in European samples (Spain, Italy) collected as early as March 2019 and is likely to have been spreading around the US by that point already. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-spain-science-idUSKBN23X2HQ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-spain-...
  - crunchyfrog 4y ago
    Those claims were never published in peer reviewed journals and were very likely just false positives: https://en.ara.cat/society/inaccurate-data-led-to-belief-that-covid-19-was-circulating-ahead-of-time_1_4095999.amp.html https://en.ara.cat/society/inaccurate-data-led-to-belief-tha...
imiric 4y ago
Ah, I see the thread has triggered CCP's mouthpieces. Please also tell us how the virus was found in frozen food imported from Argentina, Germany and India.
fortuna86 4y ago
> It's plausible since there are claims that covid was detected in the US months before covid spread in Wuhan. Not credible ones. In fact, the only people to bring this up are Chinese state media.

atleastoptimal 4y ago

> yet still allowed outbound international flights well into March 2020 I keep hearing this, but I imagine if they banned outbound flights they'd be criticized to this day for trapping people in the country during the outbreak

marcosdumay 4y ago

When planes were grounded, the virus was already all over the world for months. We just didn't know it at the time.

photochemsyn 4y ago

From what I've read, it seems the virus jumped into the human population around mid-November 2019 at the latest, and possibly early in October. https://www.reuters.com/world/china/first-covid-19-case-could-have-hit-china-oct-2019-study-2021-06-25/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/first-covid-19-case-coul... > "Another study by Australian scientists, published on Thursday in the Scientific Reports journal, used genomic data to show SARS-CoV-2 binds to human receptors far more easily than other species, suggesting it was already adapted to humans when it first emerged." I think the evidence is steadily getting stronger for Sars-CoV-2 being the result of the accidental infection of a lab worker with a CRISPR-modified bat betacoronavirus that was being tested in human cell lines and/or genetically modified lab animals. From there it spread globally by train and airplane.

beebmam 4y ago

The coverup of the origins of SARS-CoV-2 is a far worse crime than if it did accidentally leak from a lab. The coverup has done serious harm to our ability to understand how these diseases emerge at large scale in human populations.

hgsgm 4y ago
And to be clear, the coverup was at least a two-handed effort of Chinese Communist Party and Ecohealth Alliance (US-based nonprofit pandemic/virus research org that operated in Wuhan.) Ecohealth was all-in to prevent inquiry into the lab leak possiblity from the start, including ghostwriting/astroturfing an op-ed pretending there was scientific consensus against a lab leak.