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I suspect China's draconian, desperate attempt to eliminate Covid entirely was largely due to official guilt. They knew that their poorly managed reckless scie

I suspect China's draconian, desperate attempt to eliminate Covid entirely was largely due to official guilt. They knew that their poorly managed reckless science program at the Wuhan Institute of Virology was the source of the outbreak, and they wanted to somehow prove they could wipe the virus out entirely (which they couldn't). Eventually they had to give up. I wonder what happens to people in China who point this out? Probably not good for the social credit score... Of course, WIV got a lot of funding for their CRISPR-gene-editing-of-bat-betacoronavirus program from the USA's NIH via the EcoHealth Alliance outfit, so the blame doesn't rest solely with them. Not that discussing that issue publicly in the USA was good for one's social credit score on Facebook, Twitter, Reddit etc. either, although I imagine the outcome in China was significantly worse for such speech. One does get the sense that certain US authorities and institutions are somewhat envious of China's ability to censor its own people, though.

l5870uoo9y 4y ago
This scientific recklessness should be broaden out, because (to my knowledge) gain-of-function research is still happening and even laboratories with the highest security lab-leaks happen.
re-thc 4y ago
They wanted to push their own locally developed vaccines, which didn't work as well so had no other choice. If they mass imported other vaccines it'd kill their own industries.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  The west did not have 1 billion spare vaccines, they were short themselves for first 1.5 years
  - re-thc 4y ago
    China's Fosun is 1 of the partners to Biontech to produce vaccines.
imiric 4y ago
Let's entertain the possibility that China wasn't responsible for a lab leak, and that the zoonotic theory is true. Whatever the source, we know that the Wuhan wet market was a super-spreader event, which Chinese authorities concede. Following this, China grounded all domestic flights in January 2020, yet still allowed outbound international flights well into March 2020. Countries were left to ban flights from China on their own, which was a heavily politicized topic. We can say that we don't have enough information to condemn them and all other countries involved in the lab leak theory, but this one mistake is solely on China's shoulders. Had they grounded all outbound international flights, countries would've had more time to prepare, yet we saw the meteoric rise in cases worldwide in February.
- solresol 4y ago
  I have heard this version of events many times, but that's not how I remember it. I remember the only international flights allowed as being the repatriation flights. (e.g. when an overseas government organised for some non-Chinese who were in Wuhan to be able to come home). And presumably the return flights for planes that would otherwise have been stranded in Wuhan. FactCheck matches my memory... https://www.factcheck.org/2020/05/trumps-flawed-china-travel-conspiracy/ https://www.factcheck.org/2020/05/trumps-flawed-china-travel... Wikipedia for 23rd January says all outbound flights were banned: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_COVID-19_pandemic_in_January_2020 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_COVID-19_pande... And anyway, there's something wrong with the whole idea: if domestic flights were banned international flights were still allowed, wouldn't the people of Wuhan who wanted to get to Beijing just fly via Bangkok or Seoul? A ban on domestic-only flights wouldn't have achieved anything.
  - imiric 4y ago
    Those articles are only referring to flights directly from Wuhan (ignoring the fact that neither Wikipedia nor the WHO are credible sources). International flights were still allowed from Beijing and other cities. From a NYT article[1]: > “I was surprised at how lax the whole process was,” said Andrew Wu, 31, who landed at Los Angeles International Airport on a flight from Beijing on March 10. > Sabrina Fitch, 23, flew from China to Kennedy International Airport in New York on March 23. > About 60 percent of travelers on direct flights from China in February were not American citizens, according to the most recently available government data. So these were not only repatriation, but commercial flights. The flight data also shows plenty of activity in February and March[2]. Whether those were only domestic flights or not is difficult to say, but clearly the shutdown wasn't total even domestically. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/04/us/coronavirus-china-travel-restrictions.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/04/us/coronavirus-china-trav... [2]: https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/the-chinese-roller-coaster-air-traffic-in-china-during-covid-19/ https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/the-chinese-roller-coaste...
lenkite 4y ago
> They knew that their poorly managed reckless science program at the Wuhan Institute of Virology was the source of the outbreak One funded by the EcoHealth Alliance and NIAID and whose research was known to Fauci. https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/03/the-virus-hunting-nonprofit-at-the-center-of-the-lab-leak-controversy https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/03/the-virus-hunting-no... https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/10/nih-admits-funding-risky-virus-research-in-wuhan https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/10/nih-admits-funding-r... https://nypost.com/2021/10/21/nih-admits-us-funded-gain-of-function-in-wuhan-despite-faucis-repeated-denials/ https://nypost.com/2021/10/21/nih-admits-us-funded-gain-of-f...
einhverfr 4y ago
I think a more likely scenario is that all countries did what they could and China succeeded better than any other major land country. But then, as victims of their success, the costs of doing less increased with each new wave and when Omicron hit Hong Kong, the death rate soared in a way it didn't in the West. Hong Kong was not the only place to have high death rates from Omicron. New Zealand did as well. But none of the countries which had difficulty controlling earlier Covid outbreaks did. We are often prisoners of our own successes more than we are victims of our errors.
- roca 4y ago
  NZ didn't have anything like the COVID death spike that Hong Kong did. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/new-zealand/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/new-zealan... https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/china-hong-kong-sar/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/china-hong... Adjusting for population HK has had about 50% more COVID deaths than NZ. This is probably because our vaccination rate for the elderly was much higher when the dam broke. And, adjusting for population, the USA has had > 4x the number of COVID deaths that NZ has had. I don't think makes NZ a "victim of its own success".
tfcata 4y ago
Oh well, the fact that e-cigarette pneumonia at the end of 2019 and the samples were not allowed to be inspected, and that those US military members who went to Wuhan to participate in an event showed symptoms, is conveniently forgotten.
onethought 4y ago
> I suspect China's draconian, desperate attempt to eliminate Covid entirely was largely due to official guilt. OR it was because they didn't have a vaccinated population and they couldn't build and staff hospitals fast enough to deal with a nation wide exponentially growing infection. Don't let facts get in the way of a good rant though.
- roca 4y ago
  They could have vaccinated their population while they were maintaining zero-COVID. It's a mystery to me why they didn't make vaccination mandatory.
  - re-thc 4y ago
    Sinovac, Sinopharm, etc that China made weren't working up to the required standards. It wasn't something anyone wanted to come out and admit. To make vaccination mandatory they'd have to admit, kill off their own producers and import. It'd be a political disaster.
    - roca 4y ago
      Their vaccines weren't great but mandating them would have been a lot better than nothing.
      - logicchains 4y ago
        It could actually have been a lot worse than nothing. Compare covid deaths in Japan and Korea prior to the mRNA vaccine rollout in 2021 to afterwards; afterwards the infection and death rates sky-rocketed.
        roca 4y ago
        That particular anti-vax theory doesn't hold water when you consider that New Zealand vaccinated almost everyone with mRNA (Pfizer) prior to COVID spreading widely, with excellent results. https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpubh.2023.1085451/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpubh.2023.1085... NZ cumulative excess mortality since January 2020 is still negative: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/cumulative-excess-mortality-p-scores-projected-baseline?tab=chart&country=~NZL https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/cumulative-excess-mortali...
fakeslimshady5 4y ago
Apparently you missed the memo that the experiments were paid and directed at the request of US NIH
wesleywt 4y ago
I love how many of the statements made in this comment are made as statements of fact, when it is just pure fantasy.
nomay 4y ago
The regime has trumpeted the superiority of their political and governing system since the second month of covid-19, in stark contrast to the decadent and degenerate west, daily news started with data of how many more thousands died in the US. That’s a good 2 whole years on a roll, no matter how illogical it seemed, it worked. Until spring 2022, from where it lost control.
- hgsgm 4y ago
  > The regime has trumpeted the superiority of their political and governing system for decades > daily news started with data of how many more thousands died in the US. using unverifiable numbers about Chinese cases, and jailing people who challenge the data. > Until spring 2022, from where it lost control of the media message.
rhaway84773 4y ago
I suspect it had less to do with official guilt and more to do with the fact that Xi Jinping wanted to leave absolutely no opportunity open for an opposition to his 3rd term to form. It’s not a coincidence that China maintained draconian controls for years, but within months of him getting his 3rd term (and immediately purging all viable political opponents from the party), he completely opened China at the first sign of protests.
concordDance 4y ago
This is a very controversial set of claims on a very heated topic, so you should not make such bold claims without a link to further reading or some sources in your post. Otherwise you just make a lot of heat with no light.

l5870uoo9y 4y ago

This scientific recklessness should be broaden out, because (to my knowledge) gain-of-function research is still happening and even laboratories with the highest security lab-leaks happen.

re-thc 4y ago

They wanted to push their own locally developed vaccines, which didn't work as well so had no other choice. If they mass imported other vaccines it'd kill their own industries.

ClumsyPilot 4y ago
The west did not have 1 billion spare vaccines, they were short themselves for first 1.5 years
- re-thc 4y ago
  China's Fosun is 1 of the partners to Biontech to produce vaccines.

imiric 4y ago

Let's entertain the possibility that China wasn't responsible for a lab leak, and that the zoonotic theory is true. Whatever the source, we know that the Wuhan wet market was a super-spreader event, which Chinese authorities concede. Following this, China grounded all domestic flights in January 2020, yet still allowed outbound international flights well into March 2020. Countries were left to ban flights from China on their own, which was a heavily politicized topic. We can say that we don't have enough information to condemn them and all other countries involved in the lab leak theory, but this one mistake is solely on China's shoulders. Had they grounded all outbound international flights, countries would've had more time to prepare, yet we saw the meteoric rise in cases worldwide in February.

solresol 4y ago
I have heard this version of events many times, but that's not how I remember it. I remember the only international flights allowed as being the repatriation flights. (e.g. when an overseas government organised for some non-Chinese who were in Wuhan to be able to come home). And presumably the return flights for planes that would otherwise have been stranded in Wuhan. FactCheck matches my memory... https://www.factcheck.org/2020/05/trumps-flawed-china-travel-conspiracy/ https://www.factcheck.org/2020/05/trumps-flawed-china-travel... Wikipedia for 23rd January says all outbound flights were banned: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_COVID-19_pandemic_in_January_2020 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_COVID-19_pande... And anyway, there's something wrong with the whole idea: if domestic flights were banned international flights were still allowed, wouldn't the people of Wuhan who wanted to get to Beijing just fly via Bangkok or Seoul? A ban on domestic-only flights wouldn't have achieved anything.
- imiric 4y ago
  Those articles are only referring to flights directly from Wuhan (ignoring the fact that neither Wikipedia nor the WHO are credible sources). International flights were still allowed from Beijing and other cities. From a NYT article[1]: > “I was surprised at how lax the whole process was,” said Andrew Wu, 31, who landed at Los Angeles International Airport on a flight from Beijing on March 10. > Sabrina Fitch, 23, flew from China to Kennedy International Airport in New York on March 23. > About 60 percent of travelers on direct flights from China in February were not American citizens, according to the most recently available government data. So these were not only repatriation, but commercial flights. The flight data also shows plenty of activity in February and March[2]. Whether those were only domestic flights or not is difficult to say, but clearly the shutdown wasn't total even domestically. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/04/us/coronavirus-china-travel-restrictions.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/04/us/coronavirus-china-trav... [2]: https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/the-chinese-roller-coaster-air-traffic-in-china-during-covid-19/ https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/the-chinese-roller-coaste...

lenkite 4y ago

> They knew that their poorly managed reckless science program at the Wuhan Institute of Virology was the source of the outbreak One funded by the EcoHealth Alliance and NIAID and whose research was known to Fauci. https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/03/the-virus-hunting-nonprofit-at-the-center-of-the-lab-leak-controversy https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/03/the-virus-hunting-no... https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/10/nih-admits-funding-risky-virus-research-in-wuhan https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/10/nih-admits-funding-r... https://nypost.com/2021/10/21/nih-admits-us-funded-gain-of-function-in-wuhan-despite-faucis-repeated-denials/ https://nypost.com/2021/10/21/nih-admits-us-funded-gain-of-f...

einhverfr 4y ago

I think a more likely scenario is that all countries did what they could and China succeeded better than any other major land country. But then, as victims of their success, the costs of doing less increased with each new wave and when Omicron hit Hong Kong, the death rate soared in a way it didn't in the West. Hong Kong was not the only place to have high death rates from Omicron. New Zealand did as well. But none of the countries which had difficulty controlling earlier Covid outbreaks did. We are often prisoners of our own successes more than we are victims of our errors.

roca 4y ago
NZ didn't have anything like the COVID death spike that Hong Kong did. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/new-zealand/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/new-zealan... https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/china-hong-kong-sar/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/china-hong... Adjusting for population HK has had about 50% more COVID deaths than NZ. This is probably because our vaccination rate for the elderly was much higher when the dam broke. And, adjusting for population, the USA has had > 4x the number of COVID deaths that NZ has had. I don't think makes NZ a "victim of its own success".

tfcata 4y ago

Oh well, the fact that e-cigarette pneumonia at the end of 2019 and the samples were not allowed to be inspected, and that those US military members who went to Wuhan to participate in an event showed symptoms, is conveniently forgotten.

onethought 4y ago

> I suspect China's draconian, desperate attempt to eliminate Covid entirely was largely due to official guilt. OR it was because they didn't have a vaccinated population and they couldn't build and staff hospitals fast enough to deal with a nation wide exponentially growing infection. Don't let facts get in the way of a good rant though.

roca 4y ago
They could have vaccinated their population while they were maintaining zero-COVID. It's a mystery to me why they didn't make vaccination mandatory.
- re-thc 4y ago
  Sinovac, Sinopharm, etc that China made weren't working up to the required standards. It wasn't something anyone wanted to come out and admit. To make vaccination mandatory they'd have to admit, kill off their own producers and import. It'd be a political disaster.
  - roca 4y ago
    Their vaccines weren't great but mandating them would have been a lot better than nothing.
    - logicchains 4y ago
      It could actually have been a lot worse than nothing. Compare covid deaths in Japan and Korea prior to the mRNA vaccine rollout in 2021 to afterwards; afterwards the infection and death rates sky-rocketed.
      - roca 4y ago
        That particular anti-vax theory doesn't hold water when you consider that New Zealand vaccinated almost everyone with mRNA (Pfizer) prior to COVID spreading widely, with excellent results. https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpubh.2023.1085451/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpubh.2023.1085... NZ cumulative excess mortality since January 2020 is still negative: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/cumulative-excess-mortality-p-scores-projected-baseline?tab=chart&country=~NZL https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/cumulative-excess-mortali...

fakeslimshady5 4y ago

Apparently you missed the memo that the experiments were paid and directed at the request of US NIH

wesleywt 4y ago

I love how many of the statements made in this comment are made as statements of fact, when it is just pure fantasy.

nomay 4y ago

The regime has trumpeted the superiority of their political and governing system since the second month of covid-19, in stark contrast to the decadent and degenerate west, daily news started with data of how many more thousands died in the US. That’s a good 2 whole years on a roll, no matter how illogical it seemed, it worked. Until spring 2022, from where it lost control.

hgsgm 4y ago
> The regime has trumpeted the superiority of their political and governing system for decades > daily news started with data of how many more thousands died in the US. using unverifiable numbers about Chinese cases, and jailing people who challenge the data. > Until spring 2022, from where it lost control of the media message.

rhaway84773 4y ago

I suspect it had less to do with official guilt and more to do with the fact that Xi Jinping wanted to leave absolutely no opportunity open for an opposition to his 3rd term to form. It’s not a coincidence that China maintained draconian controls for years, but within months of him getting his 3rd term (and immediately purging all viable political opponents from the party), he completely opened China at the first sign of protests.

concordDance 4y ago

This is a very controversial set of claims on a very heated topic, so you should not make such bold claims without a link to further reading or some sources in your post. Otherwise you just make a lot of heat with no light.