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After about 6 months hosting my own little private Mastodon instance, I can say the following things: (1) Whoever cares about that but the atmosphere is nice,

After about 6 months hosting my own little private Mastodon instance, I can say the following things: (1) Whoever cares about that but the atmosphere is nice, cozy, exciting and creative. Zero toxicity and probably several magnitudes more meaningful conversations with people from all around the world. This apparently comes from the kinds of people I could find and connect with. (2) Hosting is relatively easy. I think all kinds of organizations (e.g. sports clubs, media companies, private companies, schools, political parties, gov't agencies, etc.) should give it a shot hosting their own instances to take control of their social media identity. They don't necessarily need to open registrations for everyone and start moderating "the masses". I only let few hand-picked people on my instance that I happen to know IRL and still have a happy life. (3) I once saw a post from a German IT mag (heise, I think from November 2022) that claimed that they have more traffic through Mastodon than through any other Social Media thingy. Surely, their audience was a good fit but I think it's a matter of critical mass when more less-nerdy people would join the Fediverse. In summary, I deleted my Twitter account ~2 months ago and don't regret it. Some things are a bit annoying (mostly bugs, finding and connecting with other people, not much interaction with my posts [maybe it's because my posts are sh*t]) but all in all it's a great resource for inspiration and digital interaction with other people.

haunter 4y ago
> Zero toxicity ymmv. The mastodon.lol (which was a safe space instance) drama over Hogwarts Legacy [0] was a very good reminder that the platform doesn’t matter, its the people. 0, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34748195 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34748195
- benatkin 4y ago
  > the platform doesn’t matter, its the people. Neither mattered in that case. It was just a conundrum. Something a lot of people wanted to boycott had a AAA game built for it. I assume you're coming on the side of Nathan, but can't you see why people were going to have a strong reaction about posts about the game surfacing in the feed? It was a wedge issue. I'm not on either side, except I am against those who actually threw those insults at Nathan, which I'm pretty sure were a tiny % of the people who disagreed with him. I think if they had merely expressed frustration about the situation but not gone off the handle the same thing could have happened, albeit more slowly.
  - starkparker 4y ago
    > I think if they had merely expressed frustration This is the fundamental fallacy of modern social media, that expressing frustration is action. Nathan wasn't going to change, and shouldn't have to. The advancement of decentralization presents an actual action disapproving users can take: leave for another instance, even by creating their own. Fragmentation of communities is a feature, not a bug.
  - PixyMisa 4y ago
    The people who want to boycott Harry Potter are as toxic as it gets. They attacked Pikamee. If you don't know who Pikamee is, that's like stamping on puppies.
    - actualwitch 4y ago
      You have to remember that there are some people who just want to leverage the free pass to bully people. In this very topic a user was suggesting to masquerade as trans to be able to troll scot free, so you have to take it with a pinch of salt.
- CyberDildonics 4y ago
  which was a safe space instance What does that mean?
  - _a9 4y ago
    safe space = echo chamber
    - berkes 4y ago
      I taste a lot of spite in this comment. It's not entirely wrong: a space with peers is a safe space. It's how e.g. recovery of PTST for veterans or rape-victims work too, I'm told. It's also why clubs have a door-policy. In this case, safe space means both "only likeminded", i.e. gatekeeping - door policy, as tech, policy and features to protect: good privacy defaults, permissioned access, privacy features etc.
      - ilyt 4y ago
        > In this case, safe space means both "only likeminded", i.e. gatekeeping - door policy, as tech, policy and features to protect: good privacy defaults, permissioned access, privacy features etc. So in case of anything politic and not say hobby circle - an echo chamber
        SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
        By this logic isn’t HN an echo chamber or safe space? It’s heavily moderated, to the point where only certain topics are even allowed to be posted (ie community is exposed). For example I can’t post my ballet gossip on hacker news, it would be considered off topic. I could argue hacker news is an echo chamber that doesnt allow for the ballet community relevant interests.
        ilyt 4y ago
        Well, there is line to be drawn between echo chamber and just keeping community on topic and it can be blurry one. For example I wouldn't consider rule "no politics talk" to be echo chamber on any social space but banning/shadowbanning one kind of leaning vs the other would certainly lean to that. Then again it is not as simple as some topics just produce people that cannot actually hold conversation about what they talk about and are more interested in throwing their piece and not trying to honestly discuss anything. The unkind extremisms can be banned without turning community into echo chamber even tho technically kicking the <person> having <view> would fall upon "banning one side of politics" Or on the other side, would you consider post discussing BDSM kinks of some ballet person to be on-topic and belonging to ballet community ? Or who they gave money for political stuff ? Would those comments improve that community or just be off-topic waste of page space ?
- berkes 4y ago
  I've been on the receiving end of a mob of angry (misguided?) fedizens too¹. It ain't pretty. Up to people showing up in private email with threats to show you they know who I am IRL. While overall the Fediverse is a kind place, it's the people that make or break that. And people are fallible. ¹ I'm working on a longer blog-post, but need some distance first, else it's just a reconing/grudge- or sounds like one.
- koheripbal 4y ago
  There is a pretty solid argument for age-restrictions in any instance - if it could be reliably yet anonymously enforced.
sbuttgereit 4y ago
"Zero toxicity and probably several magnitudes more meaningful conversations with people from all around the world. This apparently comes from the kinds of people I could find and connect with." So long as you lean to progressive worldviews and see insult slinging at those that don't see your way not as being toxic, but rather just expressions of righteous indignation... sure, I could buy that line. A quick perusal on the front page of mastodon.social had only of either relatively neutral topics or various progressive tropes on the news of the day. No contrary views were there at all. Perhaps this is what you mean: it's your bubble, so it's cozy and non-toxic. A safe-space of sorts for all right minded people. I do agree with you: Twitter is a digital hellscape. Of course, I deleted my account half a decade or so ago for this reason and to be fair, it's not changed. It might now have a different flavor with Musk, but still as toxic a place as it was before him. I can't see Mastodon as being much different and with that I'll do us both a favor a stay away from there as well.
- dangus 4y ago
  It sounds like you didn’t find the conservative instance you were looking for, but I’m sure they’re out there. Here’s the thing though: not all ideas are created equal. You want equal airtime for contrary views, but those contrary views are 1. less popular statistically 2. against the interests of the working class The alternative worldview to progressivism is basically pro-capital, anti-minority, anti-equality nonsense. You’re unhappy that progressives hurl insults at regressives, but it should be noted that they are not falling into the trap of the paradox of tolerance. When one breaks the social contract, they’re no longer under the protections of that contract, and that’s what happens when the regressive ideology sends hate toward the poor, women, LGBTQ+ people, immigrants, and other similarly disenfranchised groups. The alternative to progressive taxation is regressive taxation. The alternative to equal rights is unequal rights. The alternative to workers’ rights are corporations’ rights. The alternative to freedom of religion is theocracy. The alternative to body autonomy is control by others. The alternative to the scientific method is assumption and ignorance. The alternative to environmental protection is environmental destruction. These contrasting ideologies are not of equal value, objectively. In other words, if I make a statement like “people shouldn’t own slaves” there is no contrary view that should be entertained. You want someone to tolerate the intolerance of your desired contrary worldview, but again, you should know that it’s not hypocritical for the tolerant and accepting people to not accept your views.
waboremo 4y ago
It's interesting how many Mastodon users talk about small groups as one of the main selling points, because it's something most platforms do very well actually, yes even Twitter. Discord is another very popular place for small groups to connect, and do so meaningfully and without drama. The real problem, and where Mastodon has been tested numerous times on and failed, is scaling to larger groups. When people aren't under direct social pressure at all times to play nice and fair. There just aren't enough tools available to counteract this on Mastodon, most places just rely on shared blocklists. There are very good reasons why shadow banning became a thing, but that's a lesson to be learned down the line. For now, the fact that Mastodon in general isn't all that widely used is its strongest asset. Everything else stems from this but will not last long.
- numpad0 4y ago
  Not sure if the blacklist has to do with keeping community nice - I believe the point of the blacklist virtue signaling to a) get around oppressive App Store behavior around Gab, and b) avoid dealing with European laws. Both causes are entirely external to the Fediverse, and I haven't seen groups of "bad people" having to be cut off by blacklisting, so I'm not sure if I'm convinced that the list is necessary or effective.
- turnsout 4y ago
  This is why large instances like mastodon.social are basically a bad idea–at that scale they have all the same content moderation woes as Twitter or Meta. On a smaller instance, it's much easier for a mod to nip bad behavior in the bud—and less politically fraught, because the moderation decision doesn't have worldwide policy implications. It's the difference between being kicked out of a local coffeeshop vs arrested in the town square.
paxys 4y ago
Everyone online community can be perfect if group membership is small enough. Up until that point the underlying tech does not matter. I have been part of great hobby groups and discussions on niche subreddits, random Whatsapp groups, Usenet/IRC, even plain old email threads. So in that sense, yes, Mastadon can be great as well. The real test is – can your community handle an influx of a billion of the worst users on the internet? People baiting for flame wars, bots, scammers, pedophiles. They are all out there, and will show up the second your service has a whiff of popularity.
chemmail 4y ago
Its just takes the one person to ruin it all. Doesn't matter if he is fighting the good fight, just an ass, just a karen, or just a troll. If you find similar minded people, all the "negatives" are just accepted. Like in EU. Its 100% fine to be openly racist against the Turks, the Russinas, the Gypsies. Does that make it right? No. But is it a cozy atmosphere where everyone can agree that they can openly bash these people? Sure does.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
mikece 4y ago
> "Zero toxicity and probably several magnitudes more meaningful conversations with people from all around the world. This apparently comes from the kinds of people I could find and connect with." I find it curious and ironic that there are a number of recommended block lists of Mastodon instances with a "free speech" being a category under which many instances are blocked. I'm all for free-association and eliminating those with whom you disagree but it would be a mistake to credit ActivityPub (of which Mastodon is merely ONE server type) with creating a non-toxic environment without noticing how that happened.
brwck 4y ago
> Zero toxicity and probably several magnitudes more meaningful conversations with people from all around the world. In other words, you've built yourself a tiny echo chamber. The only way you have "zero toxicity" is that the group is exceedingly small or you force group-think. > (3) I once saw a post from a German IT mag (heise, I think from November 2022) that claimed that they have more traffic through Mastodon than through any other Social Media thingy. That's not a good thing. It means that the german IT mag has no readers.

haunter 4y ago

> Zero toxicity ymmv. The mastodon.lol (which was a safe space instance) drama over Hogwarts Legacy [0] was a very good reminder that the platform doesn’t matter, its the people. 0, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34748195 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34748195

benatkin 4y ago
> the platform doesn’t matter, its the people. Neither mattered in that case. It was just a conundrum. Something a lot of people wanted to boycott had a AAA game built for it. I assume you're coming on the side of Nathan, but can't you see why people were going to have a strong reaction about posts about the game surfacing in the feed? It was a wedge issue. I'm not on either side, except I am against those who actually threw those insults at Nathan, which I'm pretty sure were a tiny % of the people who disagreed with him. I think if they had merely expressed frustration about the situation but not gone off the handle the same thing could have happened, albeit more slowly.
- starkparker 4y ago
  > I think if they had merely expressed frustration This is the fundamental fallacy of modern social media, that expressing frustration is action. Nathan wasn't going to change, and shouldn't have to. The advancement of decentralization presents an actual action disapproving users can take: leave for another instance, even by creating their own. Fragmentation of communities is a feature, not a bug.
- PixyMisa 4y ago
  The people who want to boycott Harry Potter are as toxic as it gets. They attacked Pikamee. If you don't know who Pikamee is, that's like stamping on puppies.
  - actualwitch 4y ago
    You have to remember that there are some people who just want to leverage the free pass to bully people. In this very topic a user was suggesting to masquerade as trans to be able to troll scot free, so you have to take it with a pinch of salt.
CyberDildonics 4y ago
which was a safe space instance What does that mean?
- _a9 4y ago
  safe space = echo chamber
  - berkes 4y ago
    I taste a lot of spite in this comment. It's not entirely wrong: a space with peers is a safe space. It's how e.g. recovery of PTST for veterans or rape-victims work too, I'm told. It's also why clubs have a door-policy. In this case, safe space means both "only likeminded", i.e. gatekeeping - door policy, as tech, policy and features to protect: good privacy defaults, permissioned access, privacy features etc.
    - ilyt 4y ago
      > In this case, safe space means both "only likeminded", i.e. gatekeeping - door policy, as tech, policy and features to protect: good privacy defaults, permissioned access, privacy features etc. So in case of anything politic and not say hobby circle - an echo chamber
      - SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
        By this logic isn’t HN an echo chamber or safe space? It’s heavily moderated, to the point where only certain topics are even allowed to be posted (ie community is exposed). For example I can’t post my ballet gossip on hacker news, it would be considered off topic. I could argue hacker news is an echo chamber that doesnt allow for the ballet community relevant interests.
        ilyt 4y ago
        Well, there is line to be drawn between echo chamber and just keeping community on topic and it can be blurry one. For example I wouldn't consider rule "no politics talk" to be echo chamber on any social space but banning/shadowbanning one kind of leaning vs the other would certainly lean to that. Then again it is not as simple as some topics just produce people that cannot actually hold conversation about what they talk about and are more interested in throwing their piece and not trying to honestly discuss anything. The unkind extremisms can be banned without turning community into echo chamber even tho technically kicking the <person> having <view> would fall upon "banning one side of politics" Or on the other side, would you consider post discussing BDSM kinks of some ballet person to be on-topic and belonging to ballet community ? Or who they gave money for political stuff ? Would those comments improve that community or just be off-topic waste of page space ?
berkes 4y ago
I've been on the receiving end of a mob of angry (misguided?) fedizens too¹. It ain't pretty. Up to people showing up in private email with threats to show you they know who I am IRL. While overall the Fediverse is a kind place, it's the people that make or break that. And people are fallible. ¹ I'm working on a longer blog-post, but need some distance first, else it's just a reconing/grudge- or sounds like one.
koheripbal 4y ago
There is a pretty solid argument for age-restrictions in any instance - if it could be reliably yet anonymously enforced.

sbuttgereit 4y ago

"Zero toxicity and probably several magnitudes more meaningful conversations with people from all around the world. This apparently comes from the kinds of people I could find and connect with." So long as you lean to progressive worldviews and see insult slinging at those that don't see your way not as being toxic, but rather just expressions of righteous indignation... sure, I could buy that line. A quick perusal on the front page of mastodon.social had only of either relatively neutral topics or various progressive tropes on the news of the day. No contrary views were there at all. Perhaps this is what you mean: it's your bubble, so it's cozy and non-toxic. A safe-space of sorts for all right minded people. I do agree with you: Twitter is a digital hellscape. Of course, I deleted my account half a decade or so ago for this reason and to be fair, it's not changed. It might now have a different flavor with Musk, but still as toxic a place as it was before him. I can't see Mastodon as being much different and with that I'll do us both a favor a stay away from there as well.

dangus 4y ago
It sounds like you didn’t find the conservative instance you were looking for, but I’m sure they’re out there. Here’s the thing though: not all ideas are created equal. You want equal airtime for contrary views, but those contrary views are 1. less popular statistically 2. against the interests of the working class The alternative worldview to progressivism is basically pro-capital, anti-minority, anti-equality nonsense. You’re unhappy that progressives hurl insults at regressives, but it should be noted that they are not falling into the trap of the paradox of tolerance. When one breaks the social contract, they’re no longer under the protections of that contract, and that’s what happens when the regressive ideology sends hate toward the poor, women, LGBTQ+ people, immigrants, and other similarly disenfranchised groups. The alternative to progressive taxation is regressive taxation. The alternative to equal rights is unequal rights. The alternative to workers’ rights are corporations’ rights. The alternative to freedom of religion is theocracy. The alternative to body autonomy is control by others. The alternative to the scientific method is assumption and ignorance. The alternative to environmental protection is environmental destruction. These contrasting ideologies are not of equal value, objectively. In other words, if I make a statement like “people shouldn’t own slaves” there is no contrary view that should be entertained. You want someone to tolerate the intolerance of your desired contrary worldview, but again, you should know that it’s not hypocritical for the tolerant and accepting people to not accept your views.

waboremo 4y ago

It's interesting how many Mastodon users talk about small groups as one of the main selling points, because it's something most platforms do very well actually, yes even Twitter. Discord is another very popular place for small groups to connect, and do so meaningfully and without drama. The real problem, and where Mastodon has been tested numerous times on and failed, is scaling to larger groups. When people aren't under direct social pressure at all times to play nice and fair. There just aren't enough tools available to counteract this on Mastodon, most places just rely on shared blocklists. There are very good reasons why shadow banning became a thing, but that's a lesson to be learned down the line. For now, the fact that Mastodon in general isn't all that widely used is its strongest asset. Everything else stems from this but will not last long.

numpad0 4y ago
Not sure if the blacklist has to do with keeping community nice - I believe the point of the blacklist virtue signaling to a) get around oppressive App Store behavior around Gab, and b) avoid dealing with European laws. Both causes are entirely external to the Fediverse, and I haven't seen groups of "bad people" having to be cut off by blacklisting, so I'm not sure if I'm convinced that the list is necessary or effective.
turnsout 4y ago
This is why large instances like mastodon.social are basically a bad idea–at that scale they have all the same content moderation woes as Twitter or Meta. On a smaller instance, it's much easier for a mod to nip bad behavior in the bud—and less politically fraught, because the moderation decision doesn't have worldwide policy implications. It's the difference between being kicked out of a local coffeeshop vs arrested in the town square.

paxys 4y ago

Everyone online community can be perfect if group membership is small enough. Up until that point the underlying tech does not matter. I have been part of great hobby groups and discussions on niche subreddits, random Whatsapp groups, Usenet/IRC, even plain old email threads. So in that sense, yes, Mastadon can be great as well. The real test is – can your community handle an influx of a billion of the worst users on the internet? People baiting for flame wars, bots, scammers, pedophiles. They are all out there, and will show up the second your service has a whiff of popularity.

chemmail 4y ago

Its just takes the one person to ruin it all. Doesn't matter if he is fighting the good fight, just an ass, just a karen, or just a troll. If you find similar minded people, all the "negatives" are just accepted. Like in EU. Its 100% fine to be openly racist against the Turks, the Russinas, the Gypsies. Does that make it right? No. But is it a cozy atmosphere where everyone can agree that they can openly bash these people? Sure does.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

mikece 4y ago

> "Zero toxicity and probably several magnitudes more meaningful conversations with people from all around the world. This apparently comes from the kinds of people I could find and connect with." I find it curious and ironic that there are a number of recommended block lists of Mastodon instances with a "free speech" being a category under which many instances are blocked. I'm all for free-association and eliminating those with whom you disagree but it would be a mistake to credit ActivityPub (of which Mastodon is merely ONE server type) with creating a non-toxic environment without noticing how that happened.

brwck 4y ago

> Zero toxicity and probably several magnitudes more meaningful conversations with people from all around the world. In other words, you've built yourself a tiny echo chamber. The only way you have "zero toxicity" is that the group is exceedingly small or you force group-think. > (3) I once saw a post from a German IT mag (heise, I think from November 2022) that claimed that they have more traffic through Mastodon than through any other Social Media thingy. That's not a good thing. It means that the german IT mag has no readers.