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I watched a Taiwanese election in Taiwan. I observed their polling stations. A Taiwanese citizen started a conversation and educated me, an American, on democra

I watched a Taiwanese election in Taiwan. I observed their polling stations. A Taiwanese citizen started a conversation and educated me, an American, on democracy and elections. This Taiwanese person told me that elections are for the loser. If the loser does not believe in the validity of the election, it serves no purpose. That's why electronic voting machines are anti-thetical to the purpose of an election. Electronic voting machines exchange trust for a more efficient election. That is why Taiwan does not use electronic voting machines. That is a pretty impressive insight that was absent from my American civic education. I was very impressed with the civic education in Taiwan, and I was impressed with the average level of education in Taipei. My subjective experience as an American was that Democracy is more healthy in Taiwan than it is in America.

scrubs 4y ago
For the loser? That's like the mob's take on what practical operational control means. >My subjective experience as an American was that Democracy is more healthy in Taiwan than it is in America. Cause why?
- plaguuuuuu 4y ago
  I don't live in Taiwan but my impressions - people are a lot more engaged with politics, general political knowledge and awareness is higher, voter turnout is higher - all of these may be as a result of the ever-looming threat of being subsumed by the mainland, but also maybe an enthusiasm for democracy since it's relatively new to the country! Taiwan has its issues with first past the post voting, quality of news media and control of media (eg by sketchy foreign corporations) and conga line of infotainment propaganda outlets. There's a big economic incentive in reunificiation for some actors which perverts politics and discourse to an extent. But to be honest.. America is currently a really low bar for democracy in the first place (speaking as someone living outside USA as well)
  - scrubs 4y ago
    Thanks for the feedback. For example, the US Congress really could use some of the technical bureaucratic competence I hear Taiwan has. US institutions are in post-WWII lows right now, which is like a moist, dark, sugary place for attracting larger-than-life-personalities to no ultimate good. As one smart guy wrote, there's three kinds of power: tradition, institutions, and personality. My coralary: weak institutions attract strong personality. See the other conversation re: China & Taiwan below. It'd be a shame to see a good thing go away.
Aperocky 4y ago
> If the loser does not believe in the validity of the election, it serves no purpose. The idea seems correct, however, unsure how electronic voting machine comes into the picture, perhaps only in a mental sense, but people have shown that they will not believe in the validity of the election regardless of the evidence presented.
- chii 4y ago
  > people have shown that they will not believe in the validity of the election regardless of the evidence presented. there's that, but an electronic voting machine is more complex. Election fraud for paper ballots is "easily" detected, but not really so for electronic voting machines.
  - wdkrnls 4y ago
    Google Professor Philip Stark and read some of the papers he publishes about the dangers of electronic voting machines.
    - hayst4ck 4y ago
      https://oar.princeton.edu/bitstream/88435/pr1qj9r/1/BallotMarkingDeviceVoters.pdf https://oar.princeton.edu/bitstream/88435/pr1qj9r/1/BallotMa... This is probably the main paper you are referencing?
    - fortuna86 4y ago
      If you audit every election after they are done, what is the danger of using electric voting machines ?
      - hayst4ck 4y ago
        This might sound snide, but I assure you I am asking in good faith to prove a point. What does it mean to audit the election, without skipping the complexity? A few questions I would expect to be answered: How do we know all votes cast were legitimate? How do we know that the voting machines recorded votes correctly? How do we know the auditors are good faith actors? How do we know ballots weren't lost/delayed (mail in)? How do we know legitimate looking votes were cast by the right person? My overall assertion is not that we can't know. It's that voting is so complex that this can't be easily explained in a satisfying way to (or by) a layman. It's so complex that "trust" is a core part of the election process. Should I have to take a quarter long class in election mechanics to be satisfied that our voting system is legitimate? That's a bit of hyperbole, but I truly don't know how our elections work and I don't think I could understand them in an afternoon and it doesn't have to be that way. Taiwan's elections are simple and self-evident. American elections are extremely complex and require trust in institutions. Taiwan's elections optimize for trust. America's elections optimize for cost. Trust is priceless. I really would like an explanation of what audit means. I am open to the idea of being surprised by a satisfying answer, but I am also asking because I don't think the answer will be satisfying.
vkou 4y ago
> That's why electronic voting machines are anti-thetical to the purpose of an election Losers who have stopped believing in elections will complain about any mechanism, be it electronic or analog. (In the US, they typically don't believe the hand-recounts, either. They do believe in gerrymandering, and disenfranchisement, though, so that's how the game gets played.)
tatrajim 4y ago
Have to agree, from study in Taiwan, life in the PRC, Hong Kong, and South Korea over decades: democracy in Taiwan is healthier than that in the U.S. For the skeptical, check out videos of how ballots are counted in Taiwan. Individual ballots are lifted out on the ballot box, one-by-one, and held up for any and all observers to verify. Compare this to how the matter is typically conducted in the U.S., in near-secrecy behind closed doors, involving convoluted use of a congeries of machines, having closed-source software. https://youtu.be/rSdbDagWLFQ https://youtu.be/rSdbDagWLFQ
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- fortuna86 4y ago
  every single election in the US is subject to a complete audit after the fact. counting quickly and verifying accurately after the fact are not mutually exclusive.
  - tatrajim 4y ago
    If you're an American, you'll be all too aware of what a mess the US electoral system is, subject to varying rules across thousands of jurisdictions, large and small, and involving now prolonged "early voting", "absentee voting" for a wide variety of reasons, mail in ballots only for some states, little or no ID verification for some states, outdated voter rolls, legal "ballot harvesting" etc. Growing up we used to politely nod at the common belief that the 1960 presidential race (Kennedy vs. Nixon) was decided by Mayor Daley's corrupt intervention in Chicago. And, of course, the wild 2000 Gore vs. Bush race decided in Florida further eroded hugely trust in the electoral system. And etc. etc.
    - fortuna86 4y ago
      If I understand correctly, neither point has to do with electronic voting.
  - jeromegv 4y ago

scrubs 4y ago

For the loser? That's like the mob's take on what practical operational control means. >My subjective experience as an American was that Democracy is more healthy in Taiwan than it is in America. Cause why?

plaguuuuuu 4y ago
I don't live in Taiwan but my impressions - people are a lot more engaged with politics, general political knowledge and awareness is higher, voter turnout is higher - all of these may be as a result of the ever-looming threat of being subsumed by the mainland, but also maybe an enthusiasm for democracy since it's relatively new to the country! Taiwan has its issues with first past the post voting, quality of news media and control of media (eg by sketchy foreign corporations) and conga line of infotainment propaganda outlets. There's a big economic incentive in reunificiation for some actors which perverts politics and discourse to an extent. But to be honest.. America is currently a really low bar for democracy in the first place (speaking as someone living outside USA as well)
- scrubs 4y ago
  Thanks for the feedback. For example, the US Congress really could use some of the technical bureaucratic competence I hear Taiwan has. US institutions are in post-WWII lows right now, which is like a moist, dark, sugary place for attracting larger-than-life-personalities to no ultimate good. As one smart guy wrote, there's three kinds of power: tradition, institutions, and personality. My coralary: weak institutions attract strong personality. See the other conversation re: China & Taiwan below. It'd be a shame to see a good thing go away.

Aperocky 4y ago

> If the loser does not believe in the validity of the election, it serves no purpose. The idea seems correct, however, unsure how electronic voting machine comes into the picture, perhaps only in a mental sense, but people have shown that they will not believe in the validity of the election regardless of the evidence presented.

chii 4y ago
> people have shown that they will not believe in the validity of the election regardless of the evidence presented. there's that, but an electronic voting machine is more complex. Election fraud for paper ballots is "easily" detected, but not really so for electronic voting machines.
- wdkrnls 4y ago
  Google Professor Philip Stark and read some of the papers he publishes about the dangers of electronic voting machines.
  - hayst4ck 4y ago
    https://oar.princeton.edu/bitstream/88435/pr1qj9r/1/BallotMarkingDeviceVoters.pdf https://oar.princeton.edu/bitstream/88435/pr1qj9r/1/BallotMa... This is probably the main paper you are referencing?
  - fortuna86 4y ago
    If you audit every election after they are done, what is the danger of using electric voting machines ?
    - hayst4ck 4y ago
      This might sound snide, but I assure you I am asking in good faith to prove a point. What does it mean to audit the election, without skipping the complexity? A few questions I would expect to be answered: How do we know all votes cast were legitimate? How do we know that the voting machines recorded votes correctly? How do we know the auditors are good faith actors? How do we know ballots weren't lost/delayed (mail in)? How do we know legitimate looking votes were cast by the right person? My overall assertion is not that we can't know. It's that voting is so complex that this can't be easily explained in a satisfying way to (or by) a layman. It's so complex that "trust" is a core part of the election process. Should I have to take a quarter long class in election mechanics to be satisfied that our voting system is legitimate? That's a bit of hyperbole, but I truly don't know how our elections work and I don't think I could understand them in an afternoon and it doesn't have to be that way. Taiwan's elections are simple and self-evident. American elections are extremely complex and require trust in institutions. Taiwan's elections optimize for trust. America's elections optimize for cost. Trust is priceless. I really would like an explanation of what audit means. I am open to the idea of being surprised by a satisfying answer, but I am also asking because I don't think the answer will be satisfying.

vkou 4y ago

> That's why electronic voting machines are anti-thetical to the purpose of an election Losers who have stopped believing in elections will complain about any mechanism, be it electronic or analog. (In the US, they typically don't believe the hand-recounts, either. They do believe in gerrymandering, and disenfranchisement, though, so that's how the game gets played.)

tatrajim 4y ago

Have to agree, from study in Taiwan, life in the PRC, Hong Kong, and South Korea over decades: democracy in Taiwan is healthier than that in the U.S. For the skeptical, check out videos of how ballots are counted in Taiwan. Individual ballots are lifted out on the ballot box, one-by-one, and held up for any and all observers to verify. Compare this to how the matter is typically conducted in the U.S., in near-secrecy behind closed doors, involving convoluted use of a congeries of machines, having closed-source software. https://youtu.be/rSdbDagWLFQ https://youtu.be/rSdbDagWLFQ

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
fortuna86 4y ago
every single election in the US is subject to a complete audit after the fact. counting quickly and verifying accurately after the fact are not mutually exclusive.
- tatrajim 4y ago
  If you're an American, you'll be all too aware of what a mess the US electoral system is, subject to varying rules across thousands of jurisdictions, large and small, and involving now prolonged "early voting", "absentee voting" for a wide variety of reasons, mail in ballots only for some states, little or no ID verification for some states, outdated voter rolls, legal "ballot harvesting" etc. Growing up we used to politely nod at the common belief that the 1960 presidential race (Kennedy vs. Nixon) was decided by Mayor Daley's corrupt intervention in Chicago. And, of course, the wild 2000 Gore vs. Bush race decided in Florida further eroded hugely trust in the electoral system. And etc. etc.
  - fortuna86 4y ago
    If I understand correctly, neither point has to do with electronic voting.
- jeromegv 4y ago