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Things do change over the time. And if you are so willing to look back I am sure you'll find enough trash in a history of your own country.

• simonh 4y ago
  They do change, in mainland China they have devolved considerably under Xi. I have Family over there, and a lot of the optimism of a decade ago was already being squeezed out of the country before the pandemic.
  • FpUser 4y ago
    Yes things devolved, and they might get better over the time. Or not. Nobody knows.
    • simonh 4y ago
      I’m not sure what point you are making. Things change is such a trivially obvious point, that could be made about anything in any context, that it seems basically irrelevant to any reasoned discourse. We all know that things change, so stating that fact communicates no useful information. It’s why and how things change that is interesting. In China things have changed because Xi and the Chinese communist party have chosen to change them in particular ways. It’s these choices and the consequences of them that we are discussing.
  • EFreethought 4y ago
    I have never been to China, but to me it seems that with all their faults that ultimately Deng, Jiang and Hu wanted what was best for China. But Xi seems to care about Xi.
    • re-thc 4y ago
      Not exactly. Jiang / Hu were of a similar faction and were already secured. Xi came own his own and had to secure his place. A lot of policies were done in that direction. Instead Jiang / Hu had their own agendas including moving vast amounts of capital outside and also for themselves e.g. some of the largest VCs there. Some of Xi's policies e.g. restricting movement of capital has to do with this.
    • chii 4y ago
      It may also be possible that Xi is imagining the revival of china as a world empire that would rival that of the USA today, and this is born of both hubris, as well as egomaniacal desire of "washing away the shameful century". I think people like that are the reasons why the world isn't at peace. China could've become the next japan. They could've probably overtaken the US that way too. But now, they've "alerted" the eagle, and the US will never let china become a superpower.
      • FpUser 4y ago
        >"the US will never let china become a superpower." It already is. To the less degree than the US for now. Could go either way in the future. But if you think that the US could go on forever dictating what other countries allowed to do I think you are wrong.
    • Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
      I think Xi also cares about China, and he truly believes that a fully managed state and economy is better than democracy and free markets. Also note that Deng was in control in 1989. It's a bit more complicated than good vs evil here (which is true generally).
    • ospider 4y ago
      Indeed. In China, we used to joke that Deng's opening policy has created the second republic, on the contrary to Mao's first republic. With Xi's coronation, the second republic has died.
• ren_engineer 4y ago
  I mean change in the talking point at the time that if we just kept throwing money at China they'd magically become a democracy. As long as the CCP is in charge that's not happening and should have been clear based off Tiananmen. Allowing them into the WTO and continuing to trade with them just made their power stronger. Going to be seen as a huge blunder historically
  • SkyMarshal 4y ago
    Completely agree. There was even historical evidence that narrative was wrong and that an authoritarian government could co-exist with an industrial economy - pre-WWII Germany and Japan. Development, industrialization, and capitalism don’t automatically bring democracy, freedoms, and political liberalization. That was all just a BS fiction foisted on the US public and policy class by voracious banks, corps, and their media. That was a decision that never should have been taken, due to the terrible risk of how things would turn out if it failed, as it did. This was possibly the most disastrous strategic blunder in America’s history. Like yanking defeat from the jaws of victory in the Cold War.
    • throwawaymaths 4y ago
      But consider that economic development helped turn south korea and Taiwan from brutal dictatorships to relatively stable and sustainable democracies. It wasn't crazy to think it would work in China, and it looked like there was buy-in and progress for an (if slow) gradual bringing into the fold process that suddenly t reversed course in 2016-ish
      • FpUser 4y ago
        >"It wasn't crazy to think it would work in China" Maybe eventually it will, would just take long time. There are always ups and downs.
        • throwawaymaths 4y ago
          Exactly what I think. Nonetheless I will continue to criticize the current regime in the hopes of helping it along