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Who's we? Nobody is forced to subscribe to every little fad. I have a subscription to Spotify and Github Copilot, that's it (and rent if we consider it a subscr

Who's we? Nobody is forced to subscribe to every little fad. I have a subscription to Spotify and Github Copilot, that's it (and rent if we consider it a subscription which it kinda is).

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
wilde 4y ago
Do you just pirate all video? Or endure YT ads?
- t344344 4y ago
  YT has ads? Who is browsing today without malware filtering?
- jascination 4y ago
  On YouTube web if you use sponsorblock + ublock origin (or S-Tube if you have an androidTV), it becomes a quite amazing experience. Not strictly ethical I guess but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  - wilde 4y ago
    I’d file that under pirating. I don’t judge folks for pirating, but I think it’s a little rich to be like “why does anyone pay for things they could steal”.
    - tomjen3 4y ago
      I skipped the ads in the (very excellent) podcast I listened to today. I used the forward button. Someone paid a fortune to put ads on busses to force me to see them. If I look away, am I somehow stealing from them?
    - paulclinger 4y ago
      I find this logic strange, as I'm not obligated to watch the ads (so I use adblock), even though I know they pay for the service. By the same logic, someone may complain that I'm paying by credit card balance in full each month and still getting all the benefits while someone else is paying for the service I use (plus whatever merchant/interchange fees CCs are charging).
      - wilde 4y ago
        I use Adblock and pirate things, but I’m under no illusions about what that represents. You don’t have to modify your credit card to pay it in advance. What counts as “obligation” to you? You can also generally walk out of a restaurant without paying.
        paulclinger 4y ago
        I don't click on ads; why shouldn't I reconfigure my system to avoid them being presented to me? I don't consider this unethical at all; in fact one may argue that it's net positive for the advertiser, as I'm not wasting their resources. What I consider unethical is shoving them into my face in every way possible (frequently in ways to trick the user into clicking). I'd appreciate it more if ads were more like footnotes (with details on a separate page) that I'd visit and review if I wanted to.
  - thomastjeffery 4y ago
    Considering the damage caused by advertising in general, I would argue adblockers to be plenty moral. But that moral argument is not the issue here. Subscription services distill the marketplace for content that you can pay for. They make diverse media production prohibitively expensive, because customers can't afford to pay for a diverse collection of media when that collection is distributed across many subscriptions.
- Cthulhu_ 4y ago
  That implies they actually watch video, but yeah, ads are an alternative to paying a subscription.
kajecounterhack 4y ago
You probably "subscribe" to internet and cell service too (categories similar to rent). I guess Spotify and Copilot are okay if all you do is listen to music while writing code, but consider more common lifestyles: - NYT & other media publications are common subscriptions. - YouTube can be pretty hard to watch without YouTube premium. Given that it's a wealth of information for fixing your house, learning to cook, getting better at your job, or just pure enjoyment, seems well worth it. - Netflix and/or {HBO, Hulu, Peacock, Disney+} are hard to beat given how much TV an avg American consumes per day. Yeah it's not great for you and yeah you can do piracy to save money but it's not unreasonable to have at least one of these subscriptions. - iCloud if you want to back up your phone without plugging it in to your computer (or if you don't have a Mac but you have an iPhone). Google One if you use Google Photos a lot. - Subscription vitamins, shaving razors, baby {food, diapers, toys}, groceries, ____ <insert other item you use frequently but is a consumable>, etc. - Some folks support creatives by way of patreon or pay for newsletters by way of substack. - Amazon prime, costco membership, nest/ring camera, nintendo switch online, other annual subscriptions. - Web hosting & domain names are also common for YC readers, since you mentioned copilot :) "We" could be anyone with some combination of subscriptions that bring value to their lives. It's definitely a lot of recurring costs to manage, and many don't do a good job of culling things that once brought them value but haven't lately (e.g. I only canceled my HBO subscription 3-4 months after realizing I wasn't using it).
- world2vec 4y ago
  Internet is part of the rent in my case, same as electric bill and so on. Indeed I forgot to add I also pay Giffgaff (cell service) and Mullvad VPN (paid 1 year in advance tho). I'm not saying I'm against subscriptions, everyone can do whatever they want with their hard earned money but don't understand why Bloomberg, of all things, would have a piece about it. Different people have difference life choices. "We" in this context, definitely doesn't include everyone. About your common lifestyles, see how I live just fine besides coding and listening to music (my opinion, my life, ymmv, etc): * I read the news for free online. * uBlock Origin + Sponsorblock extensions on Firefox and NewPipe app in Android. No ads. * I don't use Netflix, HBO, etc. * I don't use iCloud. * I buy all my frequent consumables in the supermarket when they're almost running out. I use reminders on my calendar app. * Patreon and so on is something I don't use but totally understand being something people want to do and that's cool. * I don't order enough from Amazon to justify Prime, no Costco here, I have a Tesco clubcard but that's free. * I don't have anything to host. * I don't even buy books! Library is amazing, even lets me borrow ebooks to read in the Kobo ereader.
brianjking 4y ago
rent, ugh. the worst of all subscriptions.
thomastjeffery 4y ago
It's not just about the customers: it's about the marketplace, too. If a huge percentage of content is only available via subscription, it becomes prohibitively expensive to diversify the content you buy. The only solution (apart from abandoning the subscription model) is for all subscription services to merge into a small number of media empires that each contain a diversified portfolio. This only serves to exasperate the original problem.

Who's we? Nobody is forced to subscribe to every little fad. I have a subscription to Spotify and Github Copilot, that's it (and rent if we consider it a subscription which it kinda is).

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

wilde 4y ago

Do you just pirate all video? Or endure YT ads?

t344344 4y ago
YT has ads? Who is browsing today without malware filtering?
jascination 4y ago
On YouTube web if you use sponsorblock + ublock origin (or S-Tube if you have an androidTV), it becomes a quite amazing experience. Not strictly ethical I guess but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- wilde 4y ago
  I’d file that under pirating. I don’t judge folks for pirating, but I think it’s a little rich to be like “why does anyone pay for things they could steal”.
  - tomjen3 4y ago
    I skipped the ads in the (very excellent) podcast I listened to today. I used the forward button. Someone paid a fortune to put ads on busses to force me to see them. If I look away, am I somehow stealing from them?
  - paulclinger 4y ago
    I find this logic strange, as I'm not obligated to watch the ads (so I use adblock), even though I know they pay for the service. By the same logic, someone may complain that I'm paying by credit card balance in full each month and still getting all the benefits while someone else is paying for the service I use (plus whatever merchant/interchange fees CCs are charging).
    - wilde 4y ago
      I use Adblock and pirate things, but I’m under no illusions about what that represents. You don’t have to modify your credit card to pay it in advance. What counts as “obligation” to you? You can also generally walk out of a restaurant without paying.
      - paulclinger 4y ago
        I don't click on ads; why shouldn't I reconfigure my system to avoid them being presented to me? I don't consider this unethical at all; in fact one may argue that it's net positive for the advertiser, as I'm not wasting their resources. What I consider unethical is shoving them into my face in every way possible (frequently in ways to trick the user into clicking). I'd appreciate it more if ads were more like footnotes (with details on a separate page) that I'd visit and review if I wanted to.
- thomastjeffery 4y ago
  Considering the damage caused by advertising in general, I would argue adblockers to be plenty moral. But that moral argument is not the issue here. Subscription services distill the marketplace for content that you can pay for. They make diverse media production prohibitively expensive, because customers can't afford to pay for a diverse collection of media when that collection is distributed across many subscriptions.
Cthulhu_ 4y ago
That implies they actually watch video, but yeah, ads are an alternative to paying a subscription.

kajecounterhack 4y ago

You probably "subscribe" to internet and cell service too (categories similar to rent). I guess Spotify and Copilot are okay if all you do is listen to music while writing code, but consider more common lifestyles: - NYT & other media publications are common subscriptions. - YouTube can be pretty hard to watch without YouTube premium. Given that it's a wealth of information for fixing your house, learning to cook, getting better at your job, or just pure enjoyment, seems well worth it. - Netflix and/or {HBO, Hulu, Peacock, Disney+} are hard to beat given how much TV an avg American consumes per day. Yeah it's not great for you and yeah you can do piracy to save money but it's not unreasonable to have at least one of these subscriptions. - iCloud if you want to back up your phone without plugging it in to your computer (or if you don't have a Mac but you have an iPhone). Google One if you use Google Photos a lot. - Subscription vitamins, shaving razors, baby {food, diapers, toys}, groceries, ____ <insert other item you use frequently but is a consumable>, etc. - Some folks support creatives by way of patreon or pay for newsletters by way of substack. - Amazon prime, costco membership, nest/ring camera, nintendo switch online, other annual subscriptions. - Web hosting & domain names are also common for YC readers, since you mentioned copilot :) "We" could be anyone with some combination of subscriptions that bring value to their lives. It's definitely a lot of recurring costs to manage, and many don't do a good job of culling things that once brought them value but haven't lately (e.g. I only canceled my HBO subscription 3-4 months after realizing I wasn't using it).

world2vec 4y ago
Internet is part of the rent in my case, same as electric bill and so on. Indeed I forgot to add I also pay Giffgaff (cell service) and Mullvad VPN (paid 1 year in advance tho). I'm not saying I'm against subscriptions, everyone can do whatever they want with their hard earned money but don't understand why Bloomberg, of all things, would have a piece about it. Different people have difference life choices. "We" in this context, definitely doesn't include everyone. About your common lifestyles, see how I live just fine besides coding and listening to music (my opinion, my life, ymmv, etc): * I read the news for free online. * uBlock Origin + Sponsorblock extensions on Firefox and NewPipe app in Android. No ads. * I don't use Netflix, HBO, etc. * I don't use iCloud. * I buy all my frequent consumables in the supermarket when they're almost running out. I use reminders on my calendar app. * Patreon and so on is something I don't use but totally understand being something people want to do and that's cool. * I don't order enough from Amazon to justify Prime, no Costco here, I have a Tesco clubcard but that's free. * I don't have anything to host. * I don't even buy books! Library is amazing, even lets me borrow ebooks to read in the Kobo ereader.

brianjking 4y ago

rent, ugh. the worst of all subscriptions.

thomastjeffery 4y ago

It's not just about the customers: it's about the marketplace, too. If a huge percentage of content is only available via subscription, it becomes prohibitively expensive to diversify the content you buy. The only solution (apart from abandoning the subscription model) is for all subscription services to merge into a small number of media empires that each contain a diversified portfolio. This only serves to exasperate the original problem.