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> all from updating Linux Stopping breakage on updates is one of the big promises of ostree-based systems (fedora Silverblue and Kionite), and declarative sys

> all from updating Linux Stopping breakage on updates is one of the big promises of ostree-based systems (fedora Silverblue and Kionite), and declarative systems (Guix and Nix). Easy rollbacks, updates are installed in the background with no impact on the running system, and atomically switched on reboot.

mikhailt 4y ago
> Stopping breakage on updates is one of the big promises of ostree-based systems (fedora Silverblue and Kionite), and declarative systems (Guix and Nix). Easy rollbacks, updates are installed in the background with no impact on the running system, and atomically switched on reboot. That will be wonderful and by then, maybe, Linux may be considered as long as it is all simple to use. Until then, macOS/Windows/ChomeOS will continue to be the most commonly used PC OSes. I was happy when my sister switched to using Linux (Mint) but they lasted 6 months before switching to Windows and they said they have no plans to try again because it ain't worth the hassles.
still_grokking 4y ago
I see breakage on updates only on macOS and Windows. There it is a constant. People usually fear updates on those systems by now. It's always: "Let's wait and hear what others say what breaks, and whether there are workarounds", or "Let's wait for the first few minor updates to the major update; you know…". OTOH my Debian Testing boxes almost never break even I update them every single day. (You get maybe one issue caused by updated every 2 - 4 years; most of the time you just need to wait a few days to get a fix. If it's urgent a downgrade of the affected package(s) can remedy the issue instantly.) So in my experience even a perpetual "beta version" of Debian Linux is more stable than "regular releases" of other systems… I didn't had any not trivially solvable issues with my Linux boxes in the last 15 years. But I read about the major fails of either macOS or Windows more or less on a daily basis in the news… I really don't understand why anybody would use those systems therefore. Of course YMMV… I don't use any exotic hardware, don't buy the most shiny stuff right away, and I only use Debian Testing—as almost all other distris are imho broken. The ones that aren't are imho on the other hand too complicated to handle (like e.g. NixOS).
- mikhailt 4y ago
  > But I read about the major fails of either macOS or Windows more or less on a daily basis in the news… I really don't understand why anybody would use those systems therefore. When the install base is over two billion of users, we're bound to hear issues. Just bitrot alone can cause some % of issues. We're not hearing from 99% of the users, only those that have an issue and took the time to say something. There's no reason for the news or even people to go on the web every day to say Windows/macOS/Linux still works fine with updates with no software issues. I'm not saying OS are immune to issues but there's no evidence that Windows updates is causing billions of devices to break or brick on a constant daily basis here. Yes, some software may break, some incompatibility issues but Windows is pretty decent with its updates. It's also fairly easy to rollback by uninstalling the previous Windows update. Plus, macOS with Time Machine is an exceptional backup mechanism (Linux with TimeShift is great as well). Windows is...questionable. I use Reflect but I doubt most people know how to back up properly. However, I can't say that I speak for 99% either, all I can report is from people around me. I work for an employer with over 900 employees and most are on macOS, I can confidently tell you that it is not an issue at all. We rarely have an update issue. Altho, we do inform people to wait a few days before installing an update, mainly to make sure our custom stuff is working fine first. > So in my experience even a perpetual "beta version" of Debian Linux is more stable than "regular releases" of other systems… Considering one of the most popular distro is Ubuntu, which itself is based on the Debian Sid branch and a huge number of distro is based on Ubuntu; it's already safe to say that Debian is stable usually across most of its update channel. Debian is nice but I struggle to get it to work on my laptop with nVidia GPU. Some of its defaults was odd as well. I can say Debian stable is extremely snappy, it honestly shocked me. I just wish it would work out of the box on my stuff without me spending hours to figure it out. I gave up and switched back to Pop_OS; nvidia and Wi-Fi chips didn't work at all. Hopefully, that might improve over time as I hear Debian 12 is going to be more flexible with "non-free" binary firmware and drivers for its images/installer. > I don't use any exotic hardware, don't buy the most shiny stuff right away, and I only use Debian Testing That's the thing, as long as we do that, it'll be safer and less likely to break. We have to work harder to find the right hardware for the right linux support. Casual users are just going to buy whatever's configured for them. For me, if I want to get the best Debian experience, I have to find a laptop without nVidia chip, an older Intel or AMD Chipset and hope it works out of the box. Don't get me started on Wi-Fi chipset as well.

mikhailt 4y ago

> Stopping breakage on updates is one of the big promises of ostree-based systems (fedora Silverblue and Kionite), and declarative systems (Guix and Nix). Easy rollbacks, updates are installed in the background with no impact on the running system, and atomically switched on reboot. That will be wonderful and by then, maybe, Linux may be considered as long as it is all simple to use. Until then, macOS/Windows/ChomeOS will continue to be the most commonly used PC OSes. I was happy when my sister switched to using Linux (Mint) but they lasted 6 months before switching to Windows and they said they have no plans to try again because it ain't worth the hassles.

still_grokking 4y ago

I see breakage on updates only on macOS and Windows. There it is a constant. People usually fear updates on those systems by now. It's always: "Let's wait and hear what others say what breaks, and whether there are workarounds", or "Let's wait for the first few minor updates to the major update; you know…". OTOH my Debian Testing boxes almost never break even I update them every single day. (You get maybe one issue caused by updated every 2 - 4 years; most of the time you just need to wait a few days to get a fix. If it's urgent a downgrade of the affected package(s) can remedy the issue instantly.) So in my experience even a perpetual "beta version" of Debian Linux is more stable than "regular releases" of other systems… I didn't had any not trivially solvable issues with my Linux boxes in the last 15 years. But I read about the major fails of either macOS or Windows more or less on a daily basis in the news… I really don't understand why anybody would use those systems therefore. Of course YMMV… I don't use any exotic hardware, don't buy the most shiny stuff right away, and I only use Debian Testing—as almost all other distris are imho broken. The ones that aren't are imho on the other hand too complicated to handle (like e.g. NixOS).

mikhailt 4y ago
> But I read about the major fails of either macOS or Windows more or less on a daily basis in the news… I really don't understand why anybody would use those systems therefore. When the install base is over two billion of users, we're bound to hear issues. Just bitrot alone can cause some % of issues. We're not hearing from 99% of the users, only those that have an issue and took the time to say something. There's no reason for the news or even people to go on the web every day to say Windows/macOS/Linux still works fine with updates with no software issues. I'm not saying OS are immune to issues but there's no evidence that Windows updates is causing billions of devices to break or brick on a constant daily basis here. Yes, some software may break, some incompatibility issues but Windows is pretty decent with its updates. It's also fairly easy to rollback by uninstalling the previous Windows update. Plus, macOS with Time Machine is an exceptional backup mechanism (Linux with TimeShift is great as well). Windows is...questionable. I use Reflect but I doubt most people know how to back up properly. However, I can't say that I speak for 99% either, all I can report is from people around me. I work for an employer with over 900 employees and most are on macOS, I can confidently tell you that it is not an issue at all. We rarely have an update issue. Altho, we do inform people to wait a few days before installing an update, mainly to make sure our custom stuff is working fine first. > So in my experience even a perpetual "beta version" of Debian Linux is more stable than "regular releases" of other systems… Considering one of the most popular distro is Ubuntu, which itself is based on the Debian Sid branch and a huge number of distro is based on Ubuntu; it's already safe to say that Debian is stable usually across most of its update channel. Debian is nice but I struggle to get it to work on my laptop with nVidia GPU. Some of its defaults was odd as well. I can say Debian stable is extremely snappy, it honestly shocked me. I just wish it would work out of the box on my stuff without me spending hours to figure it out. I gave up and switched back to Pop_OS; nvidia and Wi-Fi chips didn't work at all. Hopefully, that might improve over time as I hear Debian 12 is going to be more flexible with "non-free" binary firmware and drivers for its images/installer. > I don't use any exotic hardware, don't buy the most shiny stuff right away, and I only use Debian Testing That's the thing, as long as we do that, it'll be safer and less likely to break. We have to work harder to find the right hardware for the right linux support. Casual users are just going to buy whatever's configured for them. For me, if I want to get the best Debian experience, I have to find a laptop without nVidia chip, an older Intel or AMD Chipset and hope it works out of the box. Don't get me started on Wi-Fi chipset as well.