5 ms·

Not everything is connected to the grid, you know. Here's an example of a single hydro dam a LONG way from the grid which (pre-Cryptocurrency gold rush) had 12

by ifni 4y ago

Not everything is connected to the grid, you know. Here's an example of a single hydro dam a LONG way from the grid which (pre-Cryptocurrency gold rush) had 12 MW of unused power generation capacity plus they were talking up the possibility of adding an additional 20 MW of generation. https://www.hydroreview.com/business-finance/boralex-acquires-145-mw-ocean-falls-hydro-station-in-bc/ https://www.hydroreview.com/business-finance/boralex-acquire... It's not going to be the only one.

esperent 4y ago
> It's not going to be the only one. It probably is the only one, or at least an unusual outlier.
IshKebab 4y ago
Almost everything is connected to the grid. And even if it isn't... Even if it is an isolated hydro plant only connected to a data centre, other useful digital services could have run there instead. There's really no getting away from the fact that cryptocurrencies waste huge amounts of energy, significantly contributing to climate change just to move money from idiots to arseholes. Not just energy too - think how many resources it takes to make 120k GPUs. He should feel deep guilt about it.
- latchkey 4y ago
  I am very happy that ETH switched to PoS. Now it just runs in the other data centers that are already in the same location and uses a fraction of the power. The GPUs were already made and older models. The PS5 chips were seconds that never made it into PS5's. They would have gone to waste regardless. If is really interesting to me how people have some sort of moral obligation to tell others how to spend energy. I find gaming a total waste of time/energy, but I don't tell people to stop playing games or that they should feel guilty about it.
  - IshKebab 4y ago
    > The GPUs were already made and older models. Just because they had already been made doesn't mean that you using them has no impact on the world. If you hadn't used them then other people would have, there would be less demand for GPUs, and fewer GPUs would be made in future. You're clearly smart enough to understand that; you just don't want to because it makes you feel guilty. Honestly I think you should just own it. I assume you made a suitably large amount of money? I can't say I wouldn't have done the same but I hope I would have the honesty to admit I basically burnt down a forest to take money from idiots. > If is really interesting to me how people have some sort of moral obligation to tell others how to spend energy. It's almost as if we all live on the same planet and the way we spend energy affects other people!
    - latchkey 4y ago
      > If you hadn't used them then other people would have, there would be less demand for GPUs, and fewer GPUs would be made in future. No. They were based on stock that didn't sell. It is a common misconception with GPU mining that you had to use the latest and greatest. The 4-5 year older tech was more ROI efficient and we got access to it, so we used it. Nobody wanted it cause it was old. We put it to use for a few years and now it'll either find a new home or get recycled for parts. > I would have the honesty to admit I basically burnt down a forest to take money from idiots. See... that's a personal attack. I don't see things the way you do. In my eyes, attempting to build a better financial system isn't 'taking money from idiots'. Given all that's going on in the banking world today, I find it hard to believe anyone would want to continue with the status quo. You literally have Yellen sitting in a room with her friends deciding which bank should live or die. I'd like to see that and a whole lot more in traditional finance get cleaned up. Helping get ETH off the ground was a good thing... now that it is on PoS, this whole debate about energy use, is a moot point. > It's almost as if we all live on the same planet and the way we spend energy affects other people! Sure, but don't be hypocritical about it. I'm sure that there are 1000's of ways that you personally don't do your part either. Ever fly in a plane to take a vacation? No one on this planet is doing a perfect job at minimizing their footprint and I certainly don't feel like I'm above anyone else to criticize others on their energy ab(use).
- yieldcrv 4y ago
  > other useful digital services could have run there instead. that's not really true. unless you have a specific example. there are gigawatt hours of energy already being expelled and wasted with no purpose, and this has continued for decades now. other "useful digital services" typically need high bandwidth internet infrastructure, or all energy use gains are lost by the physical movement of the data they are processing. in the middle of nowhere where these energy sources are, this becomes more obvious. crypto mining did not need good internet infrastructure, it is low bandwidth and can operate in fairly high latency (ie. in ethereum, valid blocks are found at a target of every 15 seconds, which means you have on average 15,000ms for the majority of the network to accept your block. satellite is okay enough for that). but ultimately this isn't to change your mind with new information, here is where we are, if you really think you have a solution that nobody else noticed, then you should thank cryptocurrency for pointing it out to you (or pissing you off enough) because you're going to save us all with your amazing observations about wasted energy being expelled for decades. otherwise, there were some large scale crypto operations that was not removing energy from any other purpose, were not polluting in the process when using clean energy, were reducing pollution when repurposing flared energy, and simply expanded a market for energy.
  - latchkey 4y ago
    nailed it
latchkey 4y ago
You are correct. There is one in upstate new york as well. An old Alcoa smelter factory powered off the Moses-Saunders dam. It is so remote and sparsely populated that transmitting the power elsewhere is just too expensive. I've even seen their energy bills and the transmission costs alone are insane.

by ifni 4y ago

esperent 4y ago

> It's not going to be the only one. It probably is the only one, or at least an unusual outlier.

IshKebab 4y ago

Almost everything is connected to the grid. And even if it isn't... Even if it is an isolated hydro plant only connected to a data centre, other useful digital services could have run there instead. There's really no getting away from the fact that cryptocurrencies waste huge amounts of energy, significantly contributing to climate change just to move money from idiots to arseholes. Not just energy too - think how many resources it takes to make 120k GPUs. He should feel deep guilt about it.

latchkey 4y ago
I am very happy that ETH switched to PoS. Now it just runs in the other data centers that are already in the same location and uses a fraction of the power. The GPUs were already made and older models. The PS5 chips were seconds that never made it into PS5's. They would have gone to waste regardless. If is really interesting to me how people have some sort of moral obligation to tell others how to spend energy. I find gaming a total waste of time/energy, but I don't tell people to stop playing games or that they should feel guilty about it.
- IshKebab 4y ago
  > The GPUs were already made and older models. Just because they had already been made doesn't mean that you using them has no impact on the world. If you hadn't used them then other people would have, there would be less demand for GPUs, and fewer GPUs would be made in future. You're clearly smart enough to understand that; you just don't want to because it makes you feel guilty. Honestly I think you should just own it. I assume you made a suitably large amount of money? I can't say I wouldn't have done the same but I hope I would have the honesty to admit I basically burnt down a forest to take money from idiots. > If is really interesting to me how people have some sort of moral obligation to tell others how to spend energy. It's almost as if we all live on the same planet and the way we spend energy affects other people!
  - latchkey 4y ago
    > If you hadn't used them then other people would have, there would be less demand for GPUs, and fewer GPUs would be made in future. No. They were based on stock that didn't sell. It is a common misconception with GPU mining that you had to use the latest and greatest. The 4-5 year older tech was more ROI efficient and we got access to it, so we used it. Nobody wanted it cause it was old. We put it to use for a few years and now it'll either find a new home or get recycled for parts. > I would have the honesty to admit I basically burnt down a forest to take money from idiots. See... that's a personal attack. I don't see things the way you do. In my eyes, attempting to build a better financial system isn't 'taking money from idiots'. Given all that's going on in the banking world today, I find it hard to believe anyone would want to continue with the status quo. You literally have Yellen sitting in a room with her friends deciding which bank should live or die. I'd like to see that and a whole lot more in traditional finance get cleaned up. Helping get ETH off the ground was a good thing... now that it is on PoS, this whole debate about energy use, is a moot point. > It's almost as if we all live on the same planet and the way we spend energy affects other people! Sure, but don't be hypocritical about it. I'm sure that there are 1000's of ways that you personally don't do your part either. Ever fly in a plane to take a vacation? No one on this planet is doing a perfect job at minimizing their footprint and I certainly don't feel like I'm above anyone else to criticize others on their energy ab(use).
yieldcrv 4y ago
> other useful digital services could have run there instead. that's not really true. unless you have a specific example. there are gigawatt hours of energy already being expelled and wasted with no purpose, and this has continued for decades now. other "useful digital services" typically need high bandwidth internet infrastructure, or all energy use gains are lost by the physical movement of the data they are processing. in the middle of nowhere where these energy sources are, this becomes more obvious. crypto mining did not need good internet infrastructure, it is low bandwidth and can operate in fairly high latency (ie. in ethereum, valid blocks are found at a target of every 15 seconds, which means you have on average 15,000ms for the majority of the network to accept your block. satellite is okay enough for that). but ultimately this isn't to change your mind with new information, here is where we are, if you really think you have a solution that nobody else noticed, then you should thank cryptocurrency for pointing it out to you (or pissing you off enough) because you're going to save us all with your amazing observations about wasted energy being expelled for decades. otherwise, there were some large scale crypto operations that was not removing energy from any other purpose, were not polluting in the process when using clean energy, were reducing pollution when repurposing flared energy, and simply expanded a market for energy.
- latchkey 4y ago
  nailed it

latchkey 4y ago

You are correct. There is one in upstate new york as well. An old Alcoa smelter factory powered off the Moses-Saunders dam. It is so remote and sparsely populated that transmitting the power elsewhere is just too expensive. I've even seen their energy bills and the transmission costs alone are insane.