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ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova
- app4soft 4y agoThread on Twitter:[0] [0] https://twitter.com/IntlCrimCourt/status/1636746559588036610 https://twitter.com/IntlCrimCourt/status/1636746559588036610
- __turbobrew__ 4y ago[flagged]
- tomp 4y ago[flagged]
- ceejayoz 4y ago"Allegedly responsible" and "innocent until proven guilty" are not in contradiction.
- groot2581 4y ago[flagged]
- khazhoux 4y agoI think this is sarcasm, and you're saying that ICC's warrant holds about as much sway in practice as if a "Sovereign Citizen" issued one... yes?
- groot2581 4y agoApplying maximum pressure to Russia requires issuing these warrants even if they’re unlikely to successfully bring him personally to justice. The relative sway doesn’t matter, I’m just doing what I can to send a message that these actions are not okay.
- sgjohnson 4y agoA completely meaningless and symbolic gesture. I don't think Putin is in a hurry to surrender himself to the ICC, and nobody is going to arrest him overseas, because as a head of state he has a total diplomatic immunity. Full disclosure: I'm fully in support of Ukraine in this Russian-expansionist war. However this is just a cold hard fact. Me pointing it out in no way whatsoever even suggests that I'm pro-russian. Which I'm absolutely not.
- dsfyu404ed 4y agoIf the goal is to give Russia maximum incentive to f-off this is not what you want to be doing. This moves the current situation further down the spectrum from "minor expansionist war we can pull out of and keep our heads on our bodies" and closer toward "potential existential crisis" from the point of view of Putin and his close buddies. The ICC is basically saying to Putin that any future successor can earn a few (more than they already would) brownie points with the west (or at least the parts of it that have the most interest alignment with the ICC) by turning him in. In practice this does nothing other than make Putin less likely (not that he was very likely to begin with) to ever voluntarily relinquish office except on his deathbed (see also: Fidel Castro). Putin eventually stepping down in favor of someone who will at least marginally improve relations with the west (not hard to imagine, over the years plenty of dictators have given up power to "moderate" successors in order to head off potential power struggles) would be good. This makes that marginally less likely (not that it was particularly likely in the sort/medium term). Edit: INB4 someone inevitably tries to construe any of this as being pro-russia, it's not.
- timdiggerm 4y ago>not that he was very likely to begin with I feel like this is over-stating the previous likelihood
- sjsdaiuasgdia 4y agoCounterpoint: marginally lower chance that Putin continues to run Russia through a hand picked stooge of a successor. It's always possible to come up with reasons to not act because acting might rock the boat. It's appeasement. Why should the ICC appease Putin?
- actinium226 4y agoAs a theoretical exercise, does anyone know what the punishment for these crimes would be? Of course we'll never see a trial, but I'm just curious, if it were to happen in some parallel universe, what would they get? A couple years in jail? Life?
- hirundo 4y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_trials https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_trials: > The trials targeted 177 defendants and obtained 142 convictions, including 25 death sentences > On 11 December 1946, the United Nations General Assembly unanimously passed a resolution affirming "the principles of international law recognized by the Charter of the Nuremberg Tribunal and the judgment of the Tribunal". But (thanks ceejayoz) https://legal.un.org/icc/statute/iccq&a.htm https://legal.un.org/icc/statute/iccq&a.htm: > Consistent with international human rights standards, the International Criminal Court has no competence to impose a death penalty. The Court can impose lengthy terms of imprisonment of up to 30 years or life when so justified by the gravity of the case. The Court may, in addition, order a fine, forfeiture of proceeds, property or assets derived from the committed crime.
- ceejayoz 4y agoThe ICC doesn't (can't) impose the death penalty.
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago50yr? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Taylor_(Liberian_politician) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Taylor_(Liberian_polit...
- pjc50 4y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Radovan_Karad%C5%BEi%C4%87 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Radovan_Karad%C5%BEi%... delivered life in prison.
- app4soft 4y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muammar_Gaddafi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muammar_Gaddafi was killed 4 months after the ICC issued warrants for his arrest.
- meghan_rain 4y agoWhy are all posts related to Russia's war on Ukraine always immediately astroturfed to death by pro-Putin bots?
- bigodbiel 4y agoSorry, buy posts like these aren't productive.
- nickthegreek 4y agoI dont see that happening on any of the current 7 comments.
- dismalpedigree 4y agoI agree. This post was on front page. By the time i tried to go back to it a few minutes later it plummeted to mid page 2.
- app4soft 4y ago> This post was on front page. By the time i tried to go back to it a few minutes later it plummeted to mid page 2 Yes, it was on HN front page.[0] But it seems like @dang immediately shadowed it manually.[0] Now You may not find actual discussion scrolling even all 15 public pages of HN's "news".[1] [0] https://twitter.com/hn_frontpage/status/1636764752759193606 https://twitter.com/hn_frontpage/status/1636764752759193606 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/news https://news.ycombinator.com/news
- pjc50 4y agoThere's a certain set of HN readers who think it's off-topic and likely to result in flamewars, and so flag political content off the front page.
- Animatronio 4y agoWhat are you talking about? There's 60 comments right now, and maybe 8 of them can be construed as favourable to putin&russia. so who's astroturfing?
- vkou 4y agoAn excellent starting point for dealing with heads of state initiating wars of aggression over false pretenses, and there is absolutely no reason to stop there.
- HKH2 4y agoDo you think it'll set a precedent for going after American heads of state?
- pphysch 4y agoIt would be a shame if Putin decided to follow Washington's lead and simply criminalize the ICC itself [1]. Yes, were Putin to wash up at Plymouth Rock, it would be a federal crime for any LEO to comply with the ICC and arrest him. Not that that would stop them, but it's funny to consider. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr...
- ceejayoz 4y agoI don't think that's true. > Additionally, the act does not prohibit the U.S. from assisting in the search and capture of foreign nationals wanted for prosecution by the ICC, specifically naming Saddam Hussein, Slobodan Milošević, and Osama bin Laden as examples.
- pphysch 4y agoI mean if the LEO were to say something like "according to ICC warrant, you're under arrest!". But practically they would just arrest him and pretend they've never heard of the ICC.
- ialyos 4y agoI don’t think that’s true! IIUC the protections from that act only apply to a subset of humans, including us military and nato military members. It’s in the article you linked! So if you see Putin at your local Safeway go ahead and citizens arrest him :)
- maximinus_thrax 4y agoIt's extra hilarious that you actually posted the link which proves everything you said is false. Putin isn't an American service member and neither an American in general. He can't be 'extradited' if he wasn't here in the first place, and the article also states: > Additionally, the act does not prohibit the U.S. from assisting in the search and capture of foreign nationals wanted for prosecution by the ICC
- 4y ago
- lordfrito 4y agoThis is the first time I've heard of Maria Lvova-Belova. I'm aware of the forced deportation of children from Ukraine to Russia. Can someone shed light on her role in this (other than her title of Commissioner of Children's Rights) and why she's being singled out?
- bigodbiel 4y agoIn this meeting with Putin, Maria Lvova-Belova personally thanks him for adopting a child from Mariupol. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhjcwbLAr0I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhjcwbLAr0I https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/02/16/putins-childrens-envoy-reveals-she-adopted-child-from-mariupol-a80249 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/02/16/putins-childrens-e...
- sam_lowry_ 4y agoApparently she is the organizer of the child abdictions, due to her position within the Russian state. She is also a prominent public supporter of the programme, having abdicted herself a teenager from Mariupol.
- nine_zeros 4y agoIt is meaningless. The only time this has any meaning is if Russia crumbles in a war, and the victor nations choose to try Putin in the ICC. A better solution to this nightmare would be Russians themselves protesting (and ceasing production) until Putin resigns - which isn't going to happen anytime soon. This is exactly why a functional democracy is so important. Bad leaders must be ejected for the sake of humanity.
- dragonwriter 4y ago> The only time this has any meaning is if Russia crumbles in a war Russia getting tired of Putin doesn’t require it crumbling in war.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- jmclnx 4y agoSo I wonder if Putitn attends the G20, which he has done in the past, can he be arrested there ?
- akmarinov 4y agoNot unless we want nuclear annihilation
- dragonwriter 4y ago> So I wonder if Putitn attends the G20, which he has done in the past, can he be arrested there ? Maybe, but even with heads-of-state where there were less in the way of, shall we say, practical deterrents, that has been problematic to make happen (e.g., Al-Bashir of Sudan, while he was in office.)
- dzhiurgis 4y agoThats whole point - he can’t leave Russia anymore. And he’s been hiding in his bunker anyway.
- 752963e64 4y ago[dead]