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As the classic saying says: there are languages everyone complains about and languages that are not (actually) used. Verbosity is usually a _good_ think especia

As the classic saying says: there are languages everyone complains about and languages that are not (actually) used. Verbosity is usually a _good_ think especially in large code bases with large number of people (where every successful startup will eventually get)

oweiler 4y ago
If verbosity would be a good thing Java wouldn't introduce language features/ library enhancements to cut down the noise (var, collection factories, switch expressions, records).
- ludovicianul 4y ago
  Those features are being released to please a larger set of people. People were relying on 3rd party libraries anyway for similar capabilities.
alfalfasprout 4y ago
The longstanding lack of generics (which has been remedied aside) who really complains about golang? The reality is Java truly shows its age. Its dogmatic insistance on pure OOP and the enormous numbers of horrifyingly unintuitive design patterns adopted by the community cause even the most well intentioned engineering culture to eventually produce ugly codebases. At this point if you're stuck in the JVM ecosystem you're almost certainly better off with Scala (which indeed is actually used) or the newer Kotlin. In a way, for all the shit people give C++ modern C++ codebases are actually quite pleasant and the language is very flexible. Would I encourage its use for general production systems? Not really. That crowns is Golang's.
- kaba0 4y ago
  Come on, golang is as expressive as java 1.1. Java is much much less verbose and more readable than go, but for some reason the latter’s proponents can’t see it..
- pjmlp 4y ago
  Go is great language, provided we went back in time and it was released in 1992. As a rebranded Limbo with Oberon-2 method syntax in 2009, not so much.
astrange 4y ago
Java is verbose because it's inexpressive, not because it's good at documenting. It's Objective-C with everything too interesting removed, but they never added enough of it back. Classic essay being http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/03/execution-in-kingdom-of-nouns.html http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/03/execution-in-kingdom....
- pjmlp 4y ago
  The only things left from Objective-C that actually matter are AOT (always available in commercial JDKs) and value types (Vahlhala will hopefully be ready some day).

oweiler 4y ago

If verbosity would be a good thing Java wouldn't introduce language features/ library enhancements to cut down the noise (var, collection factories, switch expressions, records).

ludovicianul 4y ago
Those features are being released to please a larger set of people. People were relying on 3rd party libraries anyway for similar capabilities.

alfalfasprout 4y ago

The longstanding lack of generics (which has been remedied aside) who really complains about golang? The reality is Java truly shows its age. Its dogmatic insistance on pure OOP and the enormous numbers of horrifyingly unintuitive design patterns adopted by the community cause even the most well intentioned engineering culture to eventually produce ugly codebases. At this point if you're stuck in the JVM ecosystem you're almost certainly better off with Scala (which indeed is actually used) or the newer Kotlin. In a way, for all the shit people give C++ modern C++ codebases are actually quite pleasant and the language is very flexible. Would I encourage its use for general production systems? Not really. That crowns is Golang's.

kaba0 4y ago
Come on, golang is as expressive as java 1.1. Java is much much less verbose and more readable than go, but for some reason the latter’s proponents can’t see it..
pjmlp 4y ago
Go is great language, provided we went back in time and it was released in 1992. As a rebranded Limbo with Oberon-2 method syntax in 2009, not so much.

astrange 4y ago

Java is verbose because it's inexpressive, not because it's good at documenting. It's Objective-C with everything too interesting removed, but they never added enough of it back. Classic essay being http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/03/execution-in-kingdom-of-nouns.html http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/03/execution-in-kingdom....

pjmlp 4y ago
The only things left from Objective-C that actually matter are AOT (always available in commercial JDKs) and value types (Vahlhala will hopefully be ready some day).