9 ms·

I think you and the one you're replying to are both very right. Yes, more of this money is going, instead of middle-class workers, straight to the capital clas

by xp84 4y ago

I think you and the one you're replying to are both very right. Yes, more of this money is going, instead of middle-class workers, straight to the capital class who own the "machines" that do the work people used to do. Except instead of it being a factory that makes industrial machines owned by some wealthy industrialist, the machines are things like Google and AWS and the owners are the small number of people with significant stock holdings. It's really striking though that a person graduating high school in say, 1970, could easily pick from a number of career choices even without doing college or even learning an in-demand trade, like plumbing, welding, etc. Factory work still existed and had a natural career progression that wasn't basically minimum wage, and the same went for retail. Sure, McDonalds burger flippers didn't expect then to own the restaurant in 10 years, but you could take lots of retail or clerical jobs, advance through hard work and support a family on those wages. Those are the days that are super gone and I totally agree with you both that something has changed for the worse for everyone who's not already wealthy.

mbgerring 4y ago
You can still do that with plumbing and welding
- xp84 4y ago
  Sorry, my phrasing was bad. Totally agree, even today trades are still AMAZING for this. I meant even if you were to set aside the trades, 50 years ago there was plenty of stuff you could at least support a family on without even that level of specialized skill. You could "start in the mailroom" or on the sales floor and end up in middle management after 20 years, in a variety of companies, most of which don't even exist anymore, or if they do, they employ far fewer workers domestically today due to a combo of offshoring and automation.
prottog 4y ago
> but you could take lots of retail or clerical jobs, advance through hard work and support a family on those wages. Those are the days that are super gone Only in certain places, and only mostly due to crazy policies that made housing ridiculously unaffordable. I'm in an area where my barber lives on 10 acres of land he didn't inherit and together with his wife raises two children. This type of relaxed life is possible to do in wide swathes of the country outside of the tier-one cities that have global competition trying to get in and live there, as long as you make prudent choices. I think 20- to 30-something engineers who have spent their entire adult lives in major coastal cities have a huge blind spot to how middle America lives.
- amrocha 4y ago
  That kind of life is not achievable on minimum wage, even if you choose to live in a small city
  - HPsquared 4y ago
    Only about 1% of workers are on minimum wage, you wouldn't expect an average lifestyle from that.
    - glasss 4y ago
      Very anecdotal, but I don't know anyone making minium wage for my area. I do know tons of people making within 1-2 dollars of minimum wage though. If we divvy up the data into groups like that, I wonder how much that 1% jumps.
      - prottog 4y ago
        I don't know how accurate this data is, but this website[0] breaks the US average down to single percentiles, and has detailed data for many metro areas, as well. [0]: https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-household-income-percentiles/ https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-household-income-percen...
    - amrocha 4y ago
      The comment I was replying to stated that that lifestyle is achievable for traditionally minimum wage (or close to it) jobs as long as you choose to live in a small city though
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
  - prottog 4y ago
    I don't see a problem with that, as long as those who may be earning minimum wage at any given time have the opportunity to improve their lot. I see no reason why the lowest incomes would result in median lifestyles.
aleph_minus_one 4y ago
> It's really striking though that a person graduating high school in say, 1970, could easily pick from a number of career choices even without doing college or even learning an in-demand trade, like plumbing, welding, etc. [...] Those are the days that are super gone Isn't this rather a strong argument for the claim that what high school as of today teaches is a strong mismatch with what the labour market demands? In other words: the pupils are taught skills for many years of their life that are rather worthless for the job market.
- liamN 4y ago
  This is true, but I dont think high school was ever intended to be preparing kids for the labor market; I thought it was to teach a basic education for understanding the world.
  - wrycoder 4y ago
    Until maybe four decades ago, high school was exactly intended to prepare kids for the labor market. They taught conformity, punctuality, the three Rs, and civics. It was the final education for the great majority of people in the US, as few went to college. But high school and college both got dumbed down, and now an education at a state university is comparable to high school in the first half of the twentieth century.
- ChancyChance 4y ago
  I think there is a risk to the trades as well. Tradesman service prices are skyrocketing, too. With fewer people able to hire them because they cannot afford it, won't trade jobs fall as well?
  - glasss 4y ago
    I think there's risk in trades like any business, but the world will always need plumbers, electricians, etc. Someone will always find the market price for when people are willing to pay to not have to interact with sewage or potentially get shocked.
  - 4y ago
brutus1213 4y ago
Look .. I am one of the working class here. But I gotta point out. Our standard of living is far superior to someone living in 1970 when it comes to stuff/technology. The stuff is cheaper because of China/globalization. The tech is there because we outsourced production and kept specializing the work force. I don't think UBI is the solution. Nor is squeezing people more than they are being squeezed. Efficiency and productivity are good things. What is wasteful are things like make-work programs like the DMV or other govt office. That crap needs to be automated away. Hospitals need more funding. Schools are unclear. I think schools would benefit from privatization. I don't think the same of hospitals. Not sure why.
- majormajor 4y ago
  Standard of living shouldn't be judged purely in terms of "stuff"; that's not how human brains work. There's relative effects ("keeping up with the joneses") as well as the effects of having options and possibilities for advancement ("American dream"). Make those things less accessible and people will feel less well off. And outside of electronics a lot of physical-goods/land stuff is less attainable in many places in the country anyway. The problem with non-redistributive approaches is that generational wealth rarely goes away. So if you don't have it, the number of people who don't have to try to out-spend you for whatever you want only goes up as time passes.
- sodkmfkwegw 4y ago
  It's not about our "standard of living", it's more about class mobilization. If you were born poor, you could still get a job at McDonalds, go to college on those wages, and buy a home/start a family and live middle class easily, if not upper-middle class if you chose a high-earnings potential career. Today, that's close to impossible unless you take student loans, go through the gauntlet of getting a higher paying job, and then have to grapple with home prices assuming you don't live in a place with reasonably affordable home ownership. If you think the DMV and government offices are "make-work" then we need to start with cutting military spending because it's the biggest "make-work" government program we have that the vast majority of U.S. spending goes to.
  - 4y ago

by xp84 4y ago

mbgerring 4y ago

You can still do that with plumbing and welding

xp84 4y ago
Sorry, my phrasing was bad. Totally agree, even today trades are still AMAZING for this. I meant even if you were to set aside the trades, 50 years ago there was plenty of stuff you could at least support a family on without even that level of specialized skill. You could "start in the mailroom" or on the sales floor and end up in middle management after 20 years, in a variety of companies, most of which don't even exist anymore, or if they do, they employ far fewer workers domestically today due to a combo of offshoring and automation.

prottog 4y ago

> but you could take lots of retail or clerical jobs, advance through hard work and support a family on those wages. Those are the days that are super gone Only in certain places, and only mostly due to crazy policies that made housing ridiculously unaffordable. I'm in an area where my barber lives on 10 acres of land he didn't inherit and together with his wife raises two children. This type of relaxed life is possible to do in wide swathes of the country outside of the tier-one cities that have global competition trying to get in and live there, as long as you make prudent choices. I think 20- to 30-something engineers who have spent their entire adult lives in major coastal cities have a huge blind spot to how middle America lives.

amrocha 4y ago
That kind of life is not achievable on minimum wage, even if you choose to live in a small city
- HPsquared 4y ago
  Only about 1% of workers are on minimum wage, you wouldn't expect an average lifestyle from that.
  - glasss 4y ago
    Very anecdotal, but I don't know anyone making minium wage for my area. I do know tons of people making within 1-2 dollars of minimum wage though. If we divvy up the data into groups like that, I wonder how much that 1% jumps.
    - prottog 4y ago
      I don't know how accurate this data is, but this website[0] breaks the US average down to single percentiles, and has detailed data for many metro areas, as well. [0]: https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-household-income-percentiles/ https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-household-income-percen...
  - amrocha 4y ago
    The comment I was replying to stated that that lifestyle is achievable for traditionally minimum wage (or close to it) jobs as long as you choose to live in a small city though
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- prottog 4y ago
  I don't see a problem with that, as long as those who may be earning minimum wage at any given time have the opportunity to improve their lot. I see no reason why the lowest incomes would result in median lifestyles.

aleph_minus_one 4y ago

> It's really striking though that a person graduating high school in say, 1970, could easily pick from a number of career choices even without doing college or even learning an in-demand trade, like plumbing, welding, etc. [...] Those are the days that are super gone Isn't this rather a strong argument for the claim that what high school as of today teaches is a strong mismatch with what the labour market demands? In other words: the pupils are taught skills for many years of their life that are rather worthless for the job market.

liamN 4y ago
This is true, but I dont think high school was ever intended to be preparing kids for the labor market; I thought it was to teach a basic education for understanding the world.
- wrycoder 4y ago
  Until maybe four decades ago, high school was exactly intended to prepare kids for the labor market. They taught conformity, punctuality, the three Rs, and civics. It was the final education for the great majority of people in the US, as few went to college. But high school and college both got dumbed down, and now an education at a state university is comparable to high school in the first half of the twentieth century.
ChancyChance 4y ago
I think there is a risk to the trades as well. Tradesman service prices are skyrocketing, too. With fewer people able to hire them because they cannot afford it, won't trade jobs fall as well?
- glasss 4y ago
  I think there's risk in trades like any business, but the world will always need plumbers, electricians, etc. Someone will always find the market price for when people are willing to pay to not have to interact with sewage or potentially get shocked.
- 4y ago

brutus1213 4y ago

Look .. I am one of the working class here. But I gotta point out. Our standard of living is far superior to someone living in 1970 when it comes to stuff/technology. The stuff is cheaper because of China/globalization. The tech is there because we outsourced production and kept specializing the work force. I don't think UBI is the solution. Nor is squeezing people more than they are being squeezed. Efficiency and productivity are good things. What is wasteful are things like make-work programs like the DMV or other govt office. That crap needs to be automated away. Hospitals need more funding. Schools are unclear. I think schools would benefit from privatization. I don't think the same of hospitals. Not sure why.

majormajor 4y ago
Standard of living shouldn't be judged purely in terms of "stuff"; that's not how human brains work. There's relative effects ("keeping up with the joneses") as well as the effects of having options and possibilities for advancement ("American dream"). Make those things less accessible and people will feel less well off. And outside of electronics a lot of physical-goods/land stuff is less attainable in many places in the country anyway. The problem with non-redistributive approaches is that generational wealth rarely goes away. So if you don't have it, the number of people who don't have to try to out-spend you for whatever you want only goes up as time passes.
sodkmfkwegw 4y ago
It's not about our "standard of living", it's more about class mobilization. If you were born poor, you could still get a job at McDonalds, go to college on those wages, and buy a home/start a family and live middle class easily, if not upper-middle class if you chose a high-earnings potential career. Today, that's close to impossible unless you take student loans, go through the gauntlet of getting a higher paying job, and then have to grapple with home prices assuming you don't live in a place with reasonably affordable home ownership. If you think the DMV and government offices are "make-work" then we need to start with cutting military spending because it's the biggest "make-work" government program we have that the vast majority of U.S. spending goes to.
- 4y ago