8 ms·

This feels like a way to layoff people without any of the headaches of organizing a layoff. Employees will quit voluntarily and your workforce may shrink by 5-1

This feels like a way to layoff people without any of the headaches of organizing a layoff. Employees will quit voluntarily and your workforce may shrink by 5-10%.

GoToRO 4y ago
And no severance.
larrymyers 4y ago
Employees who were hired remote and have no office within a reasonable distance should absolutely force Amazon to terminate their employment so they can collect unemployment. Amazon is the one forcing the significant change in employment terms, so employees shouldn't do them a favor and resign if they don't have another job lined up yet.
- swader999 4y ago
  Yes! It's called constructive dismissal in Canada, not sure about other jurisdictions.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    But probably requires paying lawyers etc. which may or may not be worth it.
    - throw_nbvc1234 4y ago
      If you have a job lined up no. If you're going to be job hunting wouldn't you get backdated unemployment even if you had the savings to live without it?
      - ghaff 4y ago
        For context, depending on the state, unemployment can be a few hundred dollars per week. So you might cover the costs of your lawyer. No idea of the answer to your question as there's also an assumption you're looking for employment while unemployed and may be ongoing documentation requirements.
        JohnFen 4y ago
        Depending on your state, hiring a lawyer might not be necessary. In at least one state, the employment division takes violations of employment contracts very seriously and will go to court on your behalf if the violation is egregious enough. And in all states, you don't have to have a lawyer to bring a case. These are civil cases, and you can represent yourself. You're trading time for money in that situation, of course, and there's a learning curve you need to mount.
- notyourwork 4y ago
  Employees who were hired remote can remain remote. Not all employees hired during covid were classified as such. Employees were also able to request exemption from the return to office policy.
  - macinjosh 4y ago
    I am curious where this is coming from because TFA implies that this policy applies to people who were hired remote. What is the actual distinction between those who have to RTO and those that do not? > Many employees accepted offers from Amazon with the understanding that their position will be full remote.
    - notyourwork 4y ago
      Some employees hired during covid were explicitly classified as virtual. Some were given a location and said you don't have to come to office but if you did have an office it would be in <city>. It's made very clear when hired so anyone saying otherwise missed a subtle detail.
      - Sebb767 4y ago
        > It's made very clear when hired so anyone saying otherwise missed a subtle detail. That's an oxymoron, either it was made very clear or it was subtle and therefore not very clear at all.
        dcow 4y ago
        Not really. People also willingly overlook things hoping for a different reality. It’s a pretty human thing to do.
        Sebb767 4y ago
        Yes, but that's not the point I was arguing with. Either it was made very clear (and people choose to overlook it despite it being hard to miss) or it was a subtle detail (that people easily missed, quite possibly unintentionally). Both can't be true at the same time.
- funstuff007 4y ago
  So tell me Johnny, why did you leave Amazon? My boss told me to go back to office, and I said no f'ing way--fire me! And they did. Probably not a great conversation to have on your next interview.
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    It seems fine if the new job you're interviewing for is remote-only. It's also fine if you're interviewing for a company local to you, there's no Amazon location anywhere nearby, and you were fired for refusing to relocate.
Waterluvian 4y ago
Doesn’t this effectively target all the best employees? Those that can walk away like that. This would reinforce my suspicion that big tech companies don’t really believe in the concept of engineer quality. They just hire quantity and convince them all that they’re exceptional.
- thwayunion 4y ago
  > Doesn’t this effectively target all the best employees? No, because a huge percentage of the best employees are on H1Bs and have no choice but to stay. Big tech might have some issues when the carpet gets pulled on H1B rules XOR H1B allocations during the next administration. I'm like 99.9% sure that the status quo will end one way or the other (I'm hoping it'll be rules but scared that it'll be allocations).
  - Waterluvian 4y ago
    Oh right. Good point about the H1B capture.
  - klipklop 4y ago
    They will just outsource and deal with the time zone issues. For now they have the best of both worlds.
    - thwayunion 4y ago
      Data and IP sovereignty makes this increasingly difficult, and in many cases the internationality of the talent simply doesn't buy you any savings (eg any model beyond 100b params or so, anything where you need 9 9s, etc.). Source: been in c-level convos on exactly this topic. Agree with work-a-day code slinging, but that profession is a few years away from becoming 99.9% product management anyways. In tech, if a job is in danger of outsourcing, it's either data annotation work or is probably cheaper and easier to automate sans product design/management. Also: if we're talking actual top-tier talent -- mostly O1, not H1B, btw -- you can get very top tier talent for not much more in rural Colorado/Missouri compared to Delhi / Hong Kong / São Paulo. And without the risk of a state actor saying "fuck you this belongs to me now".
bastard_op 4y ago
Exactly what I was thinking, it's a win/win for Amazon. Attrition through policy the half-steppers, with automatic self-culling enabled.
Consultant32452 4y ago
An awful person on a contract I'm on was ordered back into the office. She quit. I'm confident that was the goal.
toss1 4y ago
Yes, it is a great strategy for sociopathic managers What they don't consider, or don't care about, is that this will select-out the best people, the ones who have the most readily available options, and it will select-in those who are least capable. This means that the managers really don't GAF about any kind of quality, or their real strategy is merely to throw warm bodies at their problems and hope they can wrangle some kind of productivity from them, evidently while soothing their own egos while "managing by walking around" and hovering over everyone's cubicles trying to enforce butts-in-seats indicia of work that actually have near-zero correlation with actual productivity.
patmcc 4y ago
If this happens to anyone - look up the laws of your jurisdiction in regards to "constructive dismissal". Being required to go back into an office after being fully remote for 3 years may well qualify, and then (as far as employment law is concerned) you were fired, you didn't quit.

This feels like a way to layoff people without any of the headaches of organizing a layoff. Employees will quit voluntarily and your workforce may shrink by 5-10%.

GoToRO 4y ago

And no severance.

larrymyers 4y ago

Employees who were hired remote and have no office within a reasonable distance should absolutely force Amazon to terminate their employment so they can collect unemployment. Amazon is the one forcing the significant change in employment terms, so employees shouldn't do them a favor and resign if they don't have another job lined up yet.

swader999 4y ago
Yes! It's called constructive dismissal in Canada, not sure about other jurisdictions.
- ghaff 4y ago
  But probably requires paying lawyers etc. which may or may not be worth it.
  - throw_nbvc1234 4y ago
    If you have a job lined up no. If you're going to be job hunting wouldn't you get backdated unemployment even if you had the savings to live without it?
    - ghaff 4y ago
      For context, depending on the state, unemployment can be a few hundred dollars per week. So you might cover the costs of your lawyer. No idea of the answer to your question as there's also an assumption you're looking for employment while unemployed and may be ongoing documentation requirements.
      - JohnFen 4y ago
        Depending on your state, hiring a lawyer might not be necessary. In at least one state, the employment division takes violations of employment contracts very seriously and will go to court on your behalf if the violation is egregious enough. And in all states, you don't have to have a lawyer to bring a case. These are civil cases, and you can represent yourself. You're trading time for money in that situation, of course, and there's a learning curve you need to mount.
notyourwork 4y ago
Employees who were hired remote can remain remote. Not all employees hired during covid were classified as such. Employees were also able to request exemption from the return to office policy.
- macinjosh 4y ago
  I am curious where this is coming from because TFA implies that this policy applies to people who were hired remote. What is the actual distinction between those who have to RTO and those that do not? > Many employees accepted offers from Amazon with the understanding that their position will be full remote.
  - notyourwork 4y ago
    Some employees hired during covid were explicitly classified as virtual. Some were given a location and said you don't have to come to office but if you did have an office it would be in <city>. It's made very clear when hired so anyone saying otherwise missed a subtle detail.
    - Sebb767 4y ago
      > It's made very clear when hired so anyone saying otherwise missed a subtle detail. That's an oxymoron, either it was made very clear or it was subtle and therefore not very clear at all.
      - dcow 4y ago
        Not really. People also willingly overlook things hoping for a different reality. It’s a pretty human thing to do.
        Sebb767 4y ago
        Yes, but that's not the point I was arguing with. Either it was made very clear (and people choose to overlook it despite it being hard to miss) or it was a subtle detail (that people easily missed, quite possibly unintentionally). Both can't be true at the same time.
funstuff007 4y ago
So tell me Johnny, why did you leave Amazon? My boss told me to go back to office, and I said no f'ing way--fire me! And they did. Probably not a great conversation to have on your next interview.
- midoridensha 4y ago
  It seems fine if the new job you're interviewing for is remote-only. It's also fine if you're interviewing for a company local to you, there's no Amazon location anywhere nearby, and you were fired for refusing to relocate.

Waterluvian 4y ago

Doesn’t this effectively target all the best employees? Those that can walk away like that. This would reinforce my suspicion that big tech companies don’t really believe in the concept of engineer quality. They just hire quantity and convince them all that they’re exceptional.

thwayunion 4y ago
> Doesn’t this effectively target all the best employees? No, because a huge percentage of the best employees are on H1Bs and have no choice but to stay. Big tech might have some issues when the carpet gets pulled on H1B rules XOR H1B allocations during the next administration. I'm like 99.9% sure that the status quo will end one way or the other (I'm hoping it'll be rules but scared that it'll be allocations).
- Waterluvian 4y ago
  Oh right. Good point about the H1B capture.
- klipklop 4y ago
  They will just outsource and deal with the time zone issues. For now they have the best of both worlds.
  - thwayunion 4y ago
    Data and IP sovereignty makes this increasingly difficult, and in many cases the internationality of the talent simply doesn't buy you any savings (eg any model beyond 100b params or so, anything where you need 9 9s, etc.). Source: been in c-level convos on exactly this topic. Agree with work-a-day code slinging, but that profession is a few years away from becoming 99.9% product management anyways. In tech, if a job is in danger of outsourcing, it's either data annotation work or is probably cheaper and easier to automate sans product design/management. Also: if we're talking actual top-tier talent -- mostly O1, not H1B, btw -- you can get very top tier talent for not much more in rural Colorado/Missouri compared to Delhi / Hong Kong / São Paulo. And without the risk of a state actor saying "fuck you this belongs to me now".

bastard_op 4y ago

Exactly what I was thinking, it's a win/win for Amazon. Attrition through policy the half-steppers, with automatic self-culling enabled.

Consultant32452 4y ago

An awful person on a contract I'm on was ordered back into the office. She quit. I'm confident that was the goal.

toss1 4y ago

Yes, it is a great strategy for sociopathic managers What they don't consider, or don't care about, is that this will select-out the best people, the ones who have the most readily available options, and it will select-in those who are least capable. This means that the managers really don't GAF about any kind of quality, or their real strategy is merely to throw warm bodies at their problems and hope they can wrangle some kind of productivity from them, evidently while soothing their own egos while "managing by walking around" and hovering over everyone's cubicles trying to enforce butts-in-seats indicia of work that actually have near-zero correlation with actual productivity.

patmcc 4y ago

If this happens to anyone - look up the laws of your jurisdiction in regards to "constructive dismissal". Being required to go back into an office after being fully remote for 3 years may well qualify, and then (as far as employment law is concerned) you were fired, you didn't quit.