6 ms·

Speed limits often seem entirely arbitrary, and specifically with red light cameras municipalities have been repeatedly caught shortening yellow-light durations

Speed limits often seem entirely arbitrary, and specifically with red light cameras municipalities have been repeatedly caught shortening yellow-light durations to increase ticket revenue. I'm personally not convinced (and along with me, evidently, the vast majority of other drivers) that operating a vehicle to the letter of the law is the most salient way toward reducing traffic deaths. I would much, much rather see a reframing of the way people approach cars, including a reduction in car dependency and a CDL requirement for vehicles over a certain dimensions or weight (I have lifted trucks in mind).

cozzyd 4y ago
> Speed limits often seem entirely arbitrary, and specifically with red light cameras municipalities have been repeatedly caught shortening yellow-light durations to increase ticket revenue. Insofar as these are problems, this is an implementation detail about how to do it properly. > I'm personally not convinced (and along with me, evidently, the vast majority of other drivers) that operating a vehicle to the letter of the law is the most salient way toward reducing traffic deaths. I would much, much rather see a reframing of the way people approach cars, including a reduction in car dependency and a CDL requirement for vehicles over a certain dimensions or weight (I have lifted trucks in mind). Sure, those things would also help and I'm in favor of them. But cars speeding and running red lights is extremely dangerous to me as a pedestrian or cyclist. As we found out in 2020, reducing the number of people on the road just makes the people on the road drive even more insanely.
- Dylan16807 4y ago
  > Insofar as these are problems, this is an implementation detail about how to do it properly. Sure. It still makes the cameras insane in practice. And the introduction of red light cameras is, in a statistical sense, not just annoying but dangerous.
- ultrarunner 4y ago
  Anecdotally, in the hellscape sprawl of Phoenix, lights tend to be longer in the outer reaches of the suburbs. The grids are larger, the roads are wider, and there you must sit while each disparate line of cars takes its turn rushing off to wherever. And there is where I tend to see people brazenly running red lights. It seems to me that adding cameras, with their legal problems and perverse incentives to shorten yellow light times, leads directly to a worse outcome without treating any problem. Rather to make an actual scalable difference, it needs to be decided if these roads are going to be the highways they're mostly built as and treated like, or streets designed for people. Some certainly need to be highways, but if that is to be the case the designer needs to finish the job. Throwing a stoplight and a 45mph sign at the problem is a lazy solution that no one takes seriously precisely because it does not fit the application. Red light cameras similarly ignore the problem while adding somewhat to it.
  - cozzyd 4y ago
    You can work around perverse incentives by making the programs revenue neutral (like, any extra revenue gets mailed to transit riders, or something like that, and don't contract out red light cameras to some private company, have them be run by the DOT or something). But yes, traffic issues run much deeper than that, but the fact that any attempts at efficient traffic enforcement generate so much outcry is telling.

cozzyd 4y ago

> Speed limits often seem entirely arbitrary, and specifically with red light cameras municipalities have been repeatedly caught shortening yellow-light durations to increase ticket revenue. Insofar as these are problems, this is an implementation detail about how to do it properly. > I'm personally not convinced (and along with me, evidently, the vast majority of other drivers) that operating a vehicle to the letter of the law is the most salient way toward reducing traffic deaths. I would much, much rather see a reframing of the way people approach cars, including a reduction in car dependency and a CDL requirement for vehicles over a certain dimensions or weight (I have lifted trucks in mind). Sure, those things would also help and I'm in favor of them. But cars speeding and running red lights is extremely dangerous to me as a pedestrian or cyclist. As we found out in 2020, reducing the number of people on the road just makes the people on the road drive even more insanely.

Dylan16807 4y ago
> Insofar as these are problems, this is an implementation detail about how to do it properly. Sure. It still makes the cameras insane in practice. And the introduction of red light cameras is, in a statistical sense, not just annoying but dangerous.
ultrarunner 4y ago
Anecdotally, in the hellscape sprawl of Phoenix, lights tend to be longer in the outer reaches of the suburbs. The grids are larger, the roads are wider, and there you must sit while each disparate line of cars takes its turn rushing off to wherever. And there is where I tend to see people brazenly running red lights. It seems to me that adding cameras, with their legal problems and perverse incentives to shorten yellow light times, leads directly to a worse outcome without treating any problem. Rather to make an actual scalable difference, it needs to be decided if these roads are going to be the highways they're mostly built as and treated like, or streets designed for people. Some certainly need to be highways, but if that is to be the case the designer needs to finish the job. Throwing a stoplight and a 45mph sign at the problem is a lazy solution that no one takes seriously precisely because it does not fit the application. Red light cameras similarly ignore the problem while adding somewhat to it.
- cozzyd 4y ago
  You can work around perverse incentives by making the programs revenue neutral (like, any extra revenue gets mailed to transit riders, or something like that, and don't contract out red light cameras to some private company, have them be run by the DOT or something). But yes, traffic issues run much deeper than that, but the fact that any attempts at efficient traffic enforcement generate so much outcry is telling.