4 ms·

Well the raw materials for renewables, like copper and rare earths, are quite dirty to produce, and often done in the global south, and a not insignificant amou

Well the raw materials for renewables, like copper and rare earths, are quite dirty to produce, and often done in the global south, and a not insignificant amount was produced in Russia. So there are a lot of costs that don't show up for the end user, and it's not a given that we'll be able to access the volume of material needed to transition to a clean energy future without nuclear energy in the mix.

Gwypaas 4y ago
All materials for renewables can be recycled. It is not like they are lost. Also, compare the huge exploitation the fossil industry, which we are replacing, is already doing of the earth. From a total material requirement, nuclear is in line with solar and much worse than wind. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S095965262202131X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S095965262...
nl 4y ago
> rare earths This is a common myth that just won't go away. From 2019: "A new report by the French Environment and Energy Management Agency (Ademe) shows that rare earth minerals are not widely used in solar energy and battery storage technologies."[0] > like copper and rare earths, are quite dirty to produce, and often done in the global south I'm from Australia. You say "Global South" like it's some kind of substitute for "poor countries". I have very mixed feelings about mining, but it's pretty hard to argue against the idea that mining these exact minerals has made Australia one of the richest counties in the world, and the people working in those mines as some of the best paid "unskilled" labor on Earth[1][2]. [0] https://www.pv-magazine.com/2019/11/28/are-rare-earths-used-in-solar-panels/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2019/11/28/are-rare-earths-used-... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_w... [2] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/median-income-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/median-in...
- pacificmint 4y ago
  > I'm from Australia. You say "Global South" like it's some kind of substitute for "poor countries". “Global South” is the currently used term for what was previously called “Developing Countries” and “Third World Countries” before that. The global south is not equal to the geographical south, otherwise they could’ve just said the southern hemisphere. According to Wikipedia[1], Australia is considered part of the “Global North”. It’s an economic label more than a geographic one. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_North_and_Global_South https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_North_and_Global_South
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > what was previously called “Developing Countries” and “Third World Countries” before that. I actually think referring the development-challenged countries as “Less Developed Countries” and/or “Developing Countries” started when “Third World” still had its geopolitical alignment meaning (i.e., when “First World” and “Second World” were meaningful, and both also included countries that were behind the curve in economic development but aligned with the respective central power of the respective blocs), rather than the order you suggest.
    - nl 4y ago
      Yes it's true that "Third World" originally was a political term that meant non-aligned. However it was non-aligned nations that started using the term themselves in conjunction with poverty to highlight the issues they were facing. Although slightly different, Mao's "Three Worlds Theory" included China in the "Third World" as an "exploited nation" (whereas under purely political terms it was a "Second World" nation because of its communist government)
      - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
        After the Sino-Soviet split, China would have been considered third world, like communist Albania was canonically considered. Any country not in the USA or USSRs orbit was technically third world even if communist.
- pfdietz 4y ago
  It should also be noted that rare earths for magnets may be going away too! Tesla is saying they'll be moving to RE-free iron nitride magnets (from Niron, I think). If they can, so can wind turbines that use PMs. Iron nitride, of course, uses elements available in essentially unlimited amounts.
timeon 4y ago
> not insignificant amount was produced in Russia. Probably only Russian planes that are allowed to land in EU are those that transfer nuclear fuel (to countries like Slovakia, Czech Republic or Hungary).

Gwypaas 4y ago

All materials for renewables can be recycled. It is not like they are lost. Also, compare the huge exploitation the fossil industry, which we are replacing, is already doing of the earth. From a total material requirement, nuclear is in line with solar and much worse than wind. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S095965262202131X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S095965262...

nl 4y ago

> rare earths This is a common myth that just won't go away. From 2019: "A new report by the French Environment and Energy Management Agency (Ademe) shows that rare earth minerals are not widely used in solar energy and battery storage technologies."[0] > like copper and rare earths, are quite dirty to produce, and often done in the global south I'm from Australia. You say "Global South" like it's some kind of substitute for "poor countries". I have very mixed feelings about mining, but it's pretty hard to argue against the idea that mining these exact minerals has made Australia one of the richest counties in the world, and the people working in those mines as some of the best paid "unskilled" labor on Earth[1][2]. [0] https://www.pv-magazine.com/2019/11/28/are-rare-earths-used-in-solar-panels/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2019/11/28/are-rare-earths-used-... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_w... [2] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/median-income-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/median-in...

pacificmint 4y ago
> I'm from Australia. You say "Global South" like it's some kind of substitute for "poor countries". “Global South” is the currently used term for what was previously called “Developing Countries” and “Third World Countries” before that. The global south is not equal to the geographical south, otherwise they could’ve just said the southern hemisphere. According to Wikipedia[1], Australia is considered part of the “Global North”. It’s an economic label more than a geographic one. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_North_and_Global_South https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_North_and_Global_South
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > what was previously called “Developing Countries” and “Third World Countries” before that. I actually think referring the development-challenged countries as “Less Developed Countries” and/or “Developing Countries” started when “Third World” still had its geopolitical alignment meaning (i.e., when “First World” and “Second World” were meaningful, and both also included countries that were behind the curve in economic development but aligned with the respective central power of the respective blocs), rather than the order you suggest.
  - nl 4y ago
    Yes it's true that "Third World" originally was a political term that meant non-aligned. However it was non-aligned nations that started using the term themselves in conjunction with poverty to highlight the issues they were facing. Although slightly different, Mao's "Three Worlds Theory" included China in the "Third World" as an "exploited nation" (whereas under purely political terms it was a "Second World" nation because of its communist government)
    - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
      After the Sino-Soviet split, China would have been considered third world, like communist Albania was canonically considered. Any country not in the USA or USSRs orbit was technically third world even if communist.
pfdietz 4y ago
It should also be noted that rare earths for magnets may be going away too! Tesla is saying they'll be moving to RE-free iron nitride magnets (from Niron, I think). If they can, so can wind turbines that use PMs. Iron nitride, of course, uses elements available in essentially unlimited amounts.

timeon 4y ago

> not insignificant amount was produced in Russia. Probably only Russian planes that are allowed to land in EU are those that transfer nuclear fuel (to countries like Slovakia, Czech Republic or Hungary).