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I've always been conflicted about people like Saddam and Gaddafi. It's undeniable that they're dictators and like most dictators, have done some awful things to

by spaceman_2020 4y ago

I've always been conflicted about people like Saddam and Gaddafi. It's undeniable that they're dictators and like most dictators, have done some awful things to cement their rule. But it's also true that without strong rulers like them, their countries collapse into complete disorder. You can't impose democracy on them because they've never had democratic traditions or the institutions to perpetuate them.

ekianjo 4y ago
> they've never had democratic traditions It's not as much as having democratic traditions - it's simply that these countries are composed of a bunch of tribes, and such tribes have no intent of working with each other - the majority would crush the rest and have no problem about it.
- joosters 4y ago
  I bet you couldn't name three tribes in Iraq without running off to the internet to look it up, and yet you are confident that you know them so well to state that the majority of them want to crush all the others? Please try not to paint everyone with your own colonial-era assumptions.
marcosdumay 4y ago
How does a democracy actually appear? The only way I know is that the when people join to kill the governors every time they decide to go around killing the governed, some democratic institutions appear. Yet, this is not how most democracies were created. It was how the concept appeared, but nowadays it tends to take a different route. Some murky, hard to follow route that looks exactly like noise to me.
- spaceman_2020 4y ago
  You can see this in all post-colonial countries. There seems to be a common thread across them - countries that had some some democratic institutions before independence, AND managed to build some democracy-preserving institutions post-independence seem to have somewhat stable and even robust democracies. India is a good example. Way before independence in 1947, there were parties and organizations engaged in the political process, often with internal democracies. This facilitated the shift to democratic traditions even post-independence. And while it's not perfect, India does have a strong democracy today with hundreds of parties, largely fair elections, and robust electoral participation. Contrast this with a country like Sri Lanka that did not have the same engaged political class pre-independence and you can see how proper democracy never really thrived there post-independence.
guilhas 4y ago
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/08/toppling-saddam-hussein-statue-iraq-us-victory-myth https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/08/toppling-sadda... > “Now, when I go past that statue, I feel pain and shame,” said Kadhim al-Jabouri in 2016. “I ask myself”: Why did I topple that statue?” He regretted the fall of Saddam’s regime. What came after, in his opinion, was a disaster: “Saddam has gone, but in his place we now have one thousand Saddams.” Kadhim even wanted the statue back. “I’d like to put it back up, to rebuild it,” he said. “But I’m afraid I’d be killed.”

ekianjo 4y ago

> they've never had democratic traditions It's not as much as having democratic traditions - it's simply that these countries are composed of a bunch of tribes, and such tribes have no intent of working with each other - the majority would crush the rest and have no problem about it.

joosters 4y ago
I bet you couldn't name three tribes in Iraq without running off to the internet to look it up, and yet you are confident that you know them so well to state that the majority of them want to crush all the others? Please try not to paint everyone with your own colonial-era assumptions.

marcosdumay 4y ago

How does a democracy actually appear? The only way I know is that the when people join to kill the governors every time they decide to go around killing the governed, some democratic institutions appear. Yet, this is not how most democracies were created. It was how the concept appeared, but nowadays it tends to take a different route. Some murky, hard to follow route that looks exactly like noise to me.

spaceman_2020 4y ago
You can see this in all post-colonial countries. There seems to be a common thread across them - countries that had some some democratic institutions before independence, AND managed to build some democracy-preserving institutions post-independence seem to have somewhat stable and even robust democracies. India is a good example. Way before independence in 1947, there were parties and organizations engaged in the political process, often with internal democracies. This facilitated the shift to democratic traditions even post-independence. And while it's not perfect, India does have a strong democracy today with hundreds of parties, largely fair elections, and robust electoral participation. Contrast this with a country like Sri Lanka that did not have the same engaged political class pre-independence and you can see how proper democracy never really thrived there post-independence.

guilhas 4y ago

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/08/toppling-saddam-hussein-statue-iraq-us-victory-myth https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/08/toppling-sadda... > “Now, when I go past that statue, I feel pain and shame,” said Kadhim al-Jabouri in 2016. “I ask myself”: Why did I topple that statue?” He regretted the fall of Saddam’s regime. What came after, in his opinion, was a disaster: “Saddam has gone, but in his place we now have one thousand Saddams.” Kadhim even wanted the statue back. “I’d like to put it back up, to rebuild it,” he said. “But I’m afraid I’d be killed.”