7 ms·

Why it does and doesn’t matter if Google, Microsoft or Zoom certify your webcam

73 points by redbell 4y ago

fredoralive 4y ago
I'm pretty sure back in the day you could get keyboards with a "Works with Netware" sticker on them, so virtually meaningless certifications aren't a new thing of course.
- reaperducer 4y ago
  For a while in the late 90's, it was hard to tell a Windows computer from a NASCAR vehicle.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - wingmanjd 4y ago
    Then there was the HotWheels PC...best of both worlds!
mmis1000 4y ago
Look up a few "teams enabled camera" webcam on microsoft website. They all seems to be 1080p or higher camera as the article described. And they do have little negative reviews on amazon product page. That probably actually worth looking if I want to buy a better camera for streaming or something else next time. Wondering why no product advertise themself as "teams enabled camera", as it actually need to pass a somewhat strict test to get that badge.
Someone1234 4y ago
The only one of these you should care about is Windows Hello compatibility, and only then if you want Windows' Face Unlock.
mwexler 4y ago
MS Teams refuses to put some webcams in HD mode on Mac. Zoom may require some configuration for some HD webcams. Certified stuff makes it easy for procurement groups to defend "IT's" purchase choices and easy to distribute across an enterprise when you know it'll mostly work out of the box. So marketing, but like any product cert, it's a cya for the buyer with the hope of simpler user experience for a distributed workforce. And, of course, an excuse to charge more.
- joosters 4y ago
  I bought a 'Microsoft Modern Webcam' based upon some positive online reviews. This webcam has the bizarre stipulation that it is only certified for Teams if the microphone is turned off! To make matters worse, this means that the camera defaults to the microphone being disabled, and you need to download their proprietary software to enable it. Which is Windows-only. I've got a mac. So I ended up having to install Windows in a VM just to let me enable the microphone on my webcam. (Fortunately the setting is persistent and you only need the VM once) I think the auto light settings on the camera need the Windows software too, it's a remarkably bad camera. Avoid!
  - Wowfunhappy 4y ago
    > I think the auto light settings on the camera need the Windows software too Ew! That also means the light is software controlled rather than inherently tied to the camera being powered on. You want those on the same circuit so it's physically impossible for some malicious software to turn on the camera without the light!
    - joosters 4y ago
      Sorry, I mean the brightness levels. The on/off light works fine on the Mac (and it has a physical shutter too)
avidiax 4y ago
It is easy to make a webcam that performs poorly for certain scenarios, particularly with poor lighting, or when mounted to a monitor that has integrated speakers. Jitter in audio causes problems with automatic echo cancellation. It is much less important than in the 2010's. At that time, Skype certified cameras to provide h264 encoding in the camera. Those encoded frames would then pass through directly to the network. That kind of encoding is very demanding technically, so certification had plenty of value. Today's MJPEG cameras don't benefit as much.
- deadbeeves 4y ago
  Jitter? What does that have to do with whether the speakers are built-in or not? That should be something that happens no later than the DAC.
  - avidiax 4y ago
    Audio over USB is supposed to be synchronous, but if the webcam is buffering somehow, you could get jitter in the microphone. Some HDMI implementations have been known to have similar problems on playout (variable delay, sometimes with a snap-back). If playout and microphone don't have relatively constant delay, that makes the AEC adaptation incorrect, and you'll get echo defects.
AlexAltea 4y ago
> On its site, Google says certified peripherals must receive automatic firmware updates over the air and are tested for "quality, reliability, and interoperability." What the hell. What about keeping hardware I/O thin, and handling "quality, reliability, and interoperability" at driver level? Why do we keep adding more and more independent software stacks that require updates to our list of worries, and not less.
- crazygringo 4y ago
  I haven't installed a driver in years, nor do I ever want to again. I'm infinitely happier to have standardized USB protocols for all common peripheral types instead. Isolating software updates to firmware is much safer, because the USB protocol can limit what the peripheral can do to my computer.
  - AlexAltea 4y ago
    That's because your operating system handles drivers for you these days... You wouldn't be typing that comment if it weren't for drivers responding to interrupts and polling pressed key codes. The reason your OS updates is often to update those very same drivers.
    - gjsman-1000 4y ago
      Your remark at the end breaches Hacker News guidelines. And yes, there is a driver, but there is a difference between a generic PnP driver and the kitchen sink drivers that companies like NVIDIA ship.
      - AlexAltea 4y ago
        Thanks, fixed. > And yes, there is a driver, but there is a difference between a generic PnP driver and the kitchen sink drivers that companies like NVIDIA ship. Yes, but I said "driver" not "kitchen sink driver".
        4y ago
glanzwulf 4y ago
For most, if not all of us, it doesn't matter, but to my 55 year old and pretty much tech illiterate father this is pretty major. The one to get is the one that works on his device
robviren 4y ago
It matters to the business manufacturing the cameras a lot. I worked PM at a smallish PTZ camera manufacturer in Minnesota and we chased certification from MS, Zoom, and Google for YEARs. Constant moving of goal posts, straight up ignoring us because our volumes were somewhat low because we focused on high end education and live event cameras, and continual changes to the standard we were developing against was common. These companies used the certification to get access to data, keep their experience a walled garden, and disadvantage anyone who didn't play ball with the big soft client owners. We lost a lot of business because the people specing projects would require certification. It was a no brainer for them because then you would not need to worry about compatibility. Execs of course got on the Teams bandwagon and wanted it for the same reason. I feel this kind of walled garden stunts innovation and prevents smaller manufacturers from entering markets which will lead to a handful of companies controlling exactly what happens in tech behind meetings. Not the end of the world when good enough rains supreme. I just personally enjoyed when meeting USB specs were the only hurdle we had to worry about. Out of the business now. But figured I would share since I was on the receiving end of this anticompetitive marketing nonsense.
- NikolaNovak 4y ago
  I wonder if it's that kind of consolidation of business that causes, well... all of consumer webcams to suck. In particular, it's super hard to find a quality lens with narrow field of view. I don't need everybody on the meeting to see all my walls and hallways; I need a "50-70mm equivalent" lens to show my portrait, that's it! I have no idea why wide-angle lenses are the norm that they are. Digital zoom of course just compounds the already low resolution and crappy quality of pixels. And let's not even talk about noise and dynamic range :-/ A $30 webcam is a miracle of manufacturing efficiency and one shouldn't expect much out of it. But I'm in the "Shut up and take my money" segment to get a quality webcam (since I use it at least 4hrs a day, every day), but it just doesn't seem to exist (I did run a proper camera with a f/1.8 85mm lens for the first year of Covid, but as great as the results were, that was just a logistical pain and overkill).
  - martin_a 4y ago
    > I did run a proper camera with a f/1.8 85mm lens for the first year of Covid, but as great as the results were, that was just a logistical pain and overkill I always wondered if this was something for a Raspberry Pi and one of those Pro cameras they got. Is that something that can be done easily? edit: Quick googling revealed that it is not that easy. The RPi can provide a video stream but that needs (more) software on the computer than just a USB webcam.
cesarb 4y ago
> Teams certification has its share of marketing tactics, too. Certification requires that products advertise Teams and encourage its use by featuring an integrated light-up Teams button. As someone who uses various meeting platforms, I can confirm that this feature doesn't feel like a customer-first initiative. That tactic is not a new one; the reason most computer keyboards still have a "Windows logo" key is because, many years ago, Microsoft mandated the presence of that key, with that trademarked logo, in its certification standards.
- chrisfinazzo 4y ago
  > That tactic is not a new one; the reason most computer keyboards still have a "Windows logo" key is because, many years ago, Microsoft mandated the presence of that key, with that trademarked logo, in its certification standards. Apropos of nothing - save for this comment - is there a reason why Microsoft hasn't switched the primary modifier for keyboard shortcuts to the Windows key? Apple created the Command key to get around having to use Control, long before NeXT and its UNIX roots were even a consideration. Is the only reason a switch hasn't happened down to 40+ years of inertia?
  - callalex 4y ago
    The windows key is used extensively for system-level shortcuts, while ctrl is for application level shortcuts.
    - bitwize 4y ago
      That's BS. Control key is for sending control codes. Command key is for issuing commands. We're still dealing with the legacy of Windows 3.x using Ctrl where Apple realized that a special modifier key was needed from the beginning. God, the non-Apple ecosystem is primitive and user-hostile.
      - vkou 4y ago
        > Control key is for sending control codes. > God, the non-Apple ecosystem is primitive and user-hostile. Exactly which Windows users do you think... Send control codes on a regular basis? 'User-hostile' is exactly how I would describe being more concerned about conceptual and behavioural purity for a domain that ~none of the users have cared about for more than 2 decades. (It's also pretty weird to champion Apple, here, when it's taken them how many years to figure out that maybe having a mouse with more than one button is desirable... And I also wonder how people with, say, only one functioning hand were expected to control-click in MacOS. Didn't see a lot of them in Apple commercials, though, perhaps they weren't the target audience...)
zython 4y ago
On the same note, I find it very annoying that my AirPods dont work with msteams. It used to work on my iphone but now even that doesnt work, I have to take one out, otherwise the airpods are trapped in a disconnect-reconnect loop. I feel teleported to the stone age everytime I have to switch to my wired earbuds, just to attend my daily. And theres nothing I can do as a user other than buy another pair of earphones.
- zuppy 4y ago
  Are you sure you're not having some kind of weird hardware issue? I've been using AirPods Pro 1 & 2 for a few years and they are working fine with Teams. I don't have the regular version, only the pro, so there's a small chance that this is only limited to that.
- devmor 4y ago
  I think you may have some issue with your hardware. I have 3 generations of airpods and they all work with Teams across my iPhone, MacBook Pro and even on my Windows 10 desktop.
mdip 4y ago
While I tend to agree with the author that there are far too many "certified/designed for" logos that are meaningless, I have always purchased devices that are certified/designed for Teams/Skype for Business/Lync/OCS R2/OCS/LCS[0]. Back in the OCS/OCS R2 days (2008ish) the market was still pretty impressed with Bluetooth Headsets[1] (and people walking around like they're talking to nobody). Many "computer headsets" were extremely low-end mono-headphones/mic combos with physical mute switches (that often didn't "fully mute"). The sound quality was on-par with a terrible analog POTS call. Our company made the choice to ditch all IP (Cisco at the time) phones and legacy PBX equipment and replace "everything that was practical to do so with" with computer attached OCS R2 certified headsets. Here's what you (often) get with certified vs non-certified: - Assuming the device has a mute/unmute switch/indicator, it will match the mute/unmute state in the client. This was (probably still is, but my devices are certified) a huge problem. Non-certified devices still muted but other participants wouldn't see the mute icon. What's worse than waiting for someone to "unmute"? When they think they're unmuted but their second mute button is muted! My Jabra Speak 410 shows the mute state on the device, it matches what's in the OS and it matches what the client sees/reports. My old Polycom (similar) did the same and short of having to be oriented in a certain manner for Echo cancellation to work properly, it was a similarly trouble-free experience. - It will always[2] pick the right device for the call and the ringer. If the certified device is attached when you join a call, it will pick that device. If the OS has something different setup for when you're playing games, it still picks right. - The sound quality exceeds what the client is capable of delivering. I'm using a USB wired "speakerphone" device that I picked up for $150 in late 2012. Nobody can tell I don't have a headset unless I'm on video; it has always cancelled noise/echo and works brilliantly with "just me" or in a small conference room with several participants[3]. - Other features tie into the client correctly. If it's got a "call answer" or "hangup" button, it can be used to join or hang up a conference. Volume indicators match what the OS/Teams indicates. Can I find a headset, today, which isn't Teams certified that does all that in Windows 11? Probably. I've heard that the microphone tracking the OS does now makes the mute/unmute situation a bit better. BT Headsets and their support in Windows has improved enough that if I've got my high-end Bluetooth headphones connected, I'll use them. But for the last decade, picking a "certified" device (Teams/Lync/etc only -- I can't speak to the others) meant a completely grief-free experience. Aside from "no drivers/no setup/It Just Works(tm)", the headsets are all "at least mid-to-high-end" [0] I think that covers the naming back to 2005? [1] I remember my BlueAnt Z9 [2] Yeah, there's no such thing, but it's always worked for me across several devices. [3] So well, in fact, that when we merged with a competitor and they opted to implement Lync (at the time), they stuck (and later secured) one of these in every conference room instead of purchasing much more expensive devices (opting, instead, to outfit some of the better rooms with very high-end solutions).
highpost 4y ago
From the consumer side, it’s difficult to find meaningful specs. I can’t find a webcam that explicitly states that it has AV1 support, not even Logitech.

73 points by redbell 4y ago

I'm pretty sure back in the day you could get keyboards with a "Works with Netware" sticker on them, so virtually meaningless certifications aren't a new thing of course.

reaperducer 4y ago
For a while in the late 90's, it was hard to tell a Windows computer from a NASCAR vehicle.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- wingmanjd 4y ago
  Then there was the HotWheels PC...best of both worlds!

mmis1000 4y ago

Look up a few "teams enabled camera" webcam on microsoft website. They all seems to be 1080p or higher camera as the article described. And they do have little negative reviews on amazon product page. That probably actually worth looking if I want to buy a better camera for streaming or something else next time. Wondering why no product advertise themself as "teams enabled camera", as it actually need to pass a somewhat strict test to get that badge.

Someone1234 4y ago

The only one of these you should care about is Windows Hello compatibility, and only then if you want Windows' Face Unlock.

mwexler 4y ago

MS Teams refuses to put some webcams in HD mode on Mac. Zoom may require some configuration for some HD webcams. Certified stuff makes it easy for procurement groups to defend "IT's" purchase choices and easy to distribute across an enterprise when you know it'll mostly work out of the box. So marketing, but like any product cert, it's a cya for the buyer with the hope of simpler user experience for a distributed workforce. And, of course, an excuse to charge more.

joosters 4y ago
I bought a 'Microsoft Modern Webcam' based upon some positive online reviews. This webcam has the bizarre stipulation that it is only certified for Teams if the microphone is turned off! To make matters worse, this means that the camera defaults to the microphone being disabled, and you need to download their proprietary software to enable it. Which is Windows-only. I've got a mac. So I ended up having to install Windows in a VM just to let me enable the microphone on my webcam. (Fortunately the setting is persistent and you only need the VM once) I think the auto light settings on the camera need the Windows software too, it's a remarkably bad camera. Avoid!
- Wowfunhappy 4y ago
  > I think the auto light settings on the camera need the Windows software too Ew! That also means the light is software controlled rather than inherently tied to the camera being powered on. You want those on the same circuit so it's physically impossible for some malicious software to turn on the camera without the light!
  - joosters 4y ago
    Sorry, I mean the brightness levels. The on/off light works fine on the Mac (and it has a physical shutter too)

avidiax 4y ago

It is easy to make a webcam that performs poorly for certain scenarios, particularly with poor lighting, or when mounted to a monitor that has integrated speakers. Jitter in audio causes problems with automatic echo cancellation. It is much less important than in the 2010's. At that time, Skype certified cameras to provide h264 encoding in the camera. Those encoded frames would then pass through directly to the network. That kind of encoding is very demanding technically, so certification had plenty of value. Today's MJPEG cameras don't benefit as much.

deadbeeves 4y ago
Jitter? What does that have to do with whether the speakers are built-in or not? That should be something that happens no later than the DAC.
- avidiax 4y ago
  Audio over USB is supposed to be synchronous, but if the webcam is buffering somehow, you could get jitter in the microphone. Some HDMI implementations have been known to have similar problems on playout (variable delay, sometimes with a snap-back). If playout and microphone don't have relatively constant delay, that makes the AEC adaptation incorrect, and you'll get echo defects.

AlexAltea 4y ago

> On its site, Google says certified peripherals must receive automatic firmware updates over the air and are tested for "quality, reliability, and interoperability." What the hell. What about keeping hardware I/O thin, and handling "quality, reliability, and interoperability" at driver level? Why do we keep adding more and more independent software stacks that require updates to our list of worries, and not less.

crazygringo 4y ago
I haven't installed a driver in years, nor do I ever want to again. I'm infinitely happier to have standardized USB protocols for all common peripheral types instead. Isolating software updates to firmware is much safer, because the USB protocol can limit what the peripheral can do to my computer.
- AlexAltea 4y ago
  That's because your operating system handles drivers for you these days... You wouldn't be typing that comment if it weren't for drivers responding to interrupts and polling pressed key codes. The reason your OS updates is often to update those very same drivers.
  - gjsman-1000 4y ago
    Your remark at the end breaches Hacker News guidelines. And yes, there is a driver, but there is a difference between a generic PnP driver and the kitchen sink drivers that companies like NVIDIA ship.
    - AlexAltea 4y ago
      Thanks, fixed. > And yes, there is a driver, but there is a difference between a generic PnP driver and the kitchen sink drivers that companies like NVIDIA ship. Yes, but I said "driver" not "kitchen sink driver".
      - 4y ago

glanzwulf 4y ago

For most, if not all of us, it doesn't matter, but to my 55 year old and pretty much tech illiterate father this is pretty major. The one to get is the one that works on his device

robviren 4y ago

It matters to the business manufacturing the cameras a lot. I worked PM at a smallish PTZ camera manufacturer in Minnesota and we chased certification from MS, Zoom, and Google for YEARs. Constant moving of goal posts, straight up ignoring us because our volumes were somewhat low because we focused on high end education and live event cameras, and continual changes to the standard we were developing against was common. These companies used the certification to get access to data, keep their experience a walled garden, and disadvantage anyone who didn't play ball with the big soft client owners. We lost a lot of business because the people specing projects would require certification. It was a no brainer for them because then you would not need to worry about compatibility. Execs of course got on the Teams bandwagon and wanted it for the same reason. I feel this kind of walled garden stunts innovation and prevents smaller manufacturers from entering markets which will lead to a handful of companies controlling exactly what happens in tech behind meetings. Not the end of the world when good enough rains supreme. I just personally enjoyed when meeting USB specs were the only hurdle we had to worry about. Out of the business now. But figured I would share since I was on the receiving end of this anticompetitive marketing nonsense.

NikolaNovak 4y ago
I wonder if it's that kind of consolidation of business that causes, well... all of consumer webcams to suck. In particular, it's super hard to find a quality lens with narrow field of view. I don't need everybody on the meeting to see all my walls and hallways; I need a "50-70mm equivalent" lens to show my portrait, that's it! I have no idea why wide-angle lenses are the norm that they are. Digital zoom of course just compounds the already low resolution and crappy quality of pixels. And let's not even talk about noise and dynamic range :-/ A $30 webcam is a miracle of manufacturing efficiency and one shouldn't expect much out of it. But I'm in the "Shut up and take my money" segment to get a quality webcam (since I use it at least 4hrs a day, every day), but it just doesn't seem to exist (I did run a proper camera with a f/1.8 85mm lens for the first year of Covid, but as great as the results were, that was just a logistical pain and overkill).
- martin_a 4y ago
  > I did run a proper camera with a f/1.8 85mm lens for the first year of Covid, but as great as the results were, that was just a logistical pain and overkill I always wondered if this was something for a Raspberry Pi and one of those Pro cameras they got. Is that something that can be done easily? edit: Quick googling revealed that it is not that easy. The RPi can provide a video stream but that needs (more) software on the computer than just a USB webcam.

cesarb 4y ago

> Teams certification has its share of marketing tactics, too. Certification requires that products advertise Teams and encourage its use by featuring an integrated light-up Teams button. As someone who uses various meeting platforms, I can confirm that this feature doesn't feel like a customer-first initiative. That tactic is not a new one; the reason most computer keyboards still have a "Windows logo" key is because, many years ago, Microsoft mandated the presence of that key, with that trademarked logo, in its certification standards.

chrisfinazzo 4y ago
> That tactic is not a new one; the reason most computer keyboards still have a "Windows logo" key is because, many years ago, Microsoft mandated the presence of that key, with that trademarked logo, in its certification standards. Apropos of nothing - save for this comment - is there a reason why Microsoft hasn't switched the primary modifier for keyboard shortcuts to the Windows key? Apple created the Command key to get around having to use Control, long before NeXT and its UNIX roots were even a consideration. Is the only reason a switch hasn't happened down to 40+ years of inertia?
- callalex 4y ago
  The windows key is used extensively for system-level shortcuts, while ctrl is for application level shortcuts.
  - bitwize 4y ago
    That's BS. Control key is for sending control codes. Command key is for issuing commands. We're still dealing with the legacy of Windows 3.x using Ctrl where Apple realized that a special modifier key was needed from the beginning. God, the non-Apple ecosystem is primitive and user-hostile.
    - vkou 4y ago
      > Control key is for sending control codes. > God, the non-Apple ecosystem is primitive and user-hostile. Exactly which Windows users do you think... Send control codes on a regular basis? 'User-hostile' is exactly how I would describe being more concerned about conceptual and behavioural purity for a domain that ~none of the users have cared about for more than 2 decades. (It's also pretty weird to champion Apple, here, when it's taken them how many years to figure out that maybe having a mouse with more than one button is desirable... And I also wonder how people with, say, only one functioning hand were expected to control-click in MacOS. Didn't see a lot of them in Apple commercials, though, perhaps they weren't the target audience...)

zython 4y ago

On the same note, I find it very annoying that my AirPods dont work with msteams. It used to work on my iphone but now even that doesnt work, I have to take one out, otherwise the airpods are trapped in a disconnect-reconnect loop. I feel teleported to the stone age everytime I have to switch to my wired earbuds, just to attend my daily. And theres nothing I can do as a user other than buy another pair of earphones.

zuppy 4y ago
Are you sure you're not having some kind of weird hardware issue? I've been using AirPods Pro 1 & 2 for a few years and they are working fine with Teams. I don't have the regular version, only the pro, so there's a small chance that this is only limited to that.
devmor 4y ago
I think you may have some issue with your hardware. I have 3 generations of airpods and they all work with Teams across my iPhone, MacBook Pro and even on my Windows 10 desktop.

mdip 4y ago

While I tend to agree with the author that there are far too many "certified/designed for" logos that are meaningless, I have always purchased devices that are certified/designed for Teams/Skype for Business/Lync/OCS R2/OCS/LCS[0]. Back in the OCS/OCS R2 days (2008ish) the market was still pretty impressed with Bluetooth Headsets[1] (and people walking around like they're talking to nobody). Many "computer headsets" were extremely low-end mono-headphones/mic combos with physical mute switches (that often didn't "fully mute"). The sound quality was on-par with a terrible analog POTS call. Our company made the choice to ditch all IP (Cisco at the time) phones and legacy PBX equipment and replace "everything that was practical to do so with" with computer attached OCS R2 certified headsets. Here's what you (often) get with certified vs non-certified: - Assuming the device has a mute/unmute switch/indicator, it will match the mute/unmute state in the client. This was (probably still is, but my devices are certified) a huge problem. Non-certified devices still muted but other participants wouldn't see the mute icon. What's worse than waiting for someone to "unmute"? When they think they're unmuted but their second mute button is muted! My Jabra Speak 410 shows the mute state on the device, it matches what's in the OS and it matches what the client sees/reports. My old Polycom (similar) did the same and short of having to be oriented in a certain manner for Echo cancellation to work properly, it was a similarly trouble-free experience. - It will always[2] pick the right device for the call and the ringer. If the certified device is attached when you join a call, it will pick that device. If the OS has something different setup for when you're playing games, it still picks right. - The sound quality exceeds what the client is capable of delivering. I'm using a USB wired "speakerphone" device that I picked up for $150 in late 2012. Nobody can tell I don't have a headset unless I'm on video; it has always cancelled noise/echo and works brilliantly with "just me" or in a small conference room with several participants[3]. - Other features tie into the client correctly. If it's got a "call answer" or "hangup" button, it can be used to join or hang up a conference. Volume indicators match what the OS/Teams indicates. Can I find a headset, today, which isn't Teams certified that does all that in Windows 11? Probably. I've heard that the microphone tracking the OS does now makes the mute/unmute situation a bit better. BT Headsets and their support in Windows has improved enough that if I've got my high-end Bluetooth headphones connected, I'll use them. But for the last decade, picking a "certified" device (Teams/Lync/etc only -- I can't speak to the others) meant a completely grief-free experience. Aside from "no drivers/no setup/It Just Works(tm)", the headsets are all "at least mid-to-high-end" [0] I think that covers the naming back to 2005? [1] I remember my BlueAnt Z9 [2] Yeah, there's no such thing, but it's always worked for me across several devices. [3] So well, in fact, that when we merged with a competitor and they opted to implement Lync (at the time), they stuck (and later secured) one of these in every conference room instead of purchasing much more expensive devices (opting, instead, to outfit some of the better rooms with very high-end solutions).

highpost 4y ago

From the consumer side, it’s difficult to find meaningful specs. I can’t find a webcam that explicitly states that it has AV1 support, not even Logitech.