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In Europe, you can't drive for Uber or deliver food without a standard work contract which includes: healthcare, pension, payroll and income taxes. Drivers her

In Europe, you can't drive for Uber or deliver food without a standard work contract which includes: healthcare, pension, payroll and income taxes. Drivers here PAY private companies a weekly amount in order to work for Uber et all (to have that contract). Uber et all work with these companies only, not individuals.

alchemist1e9 4y ago
How does the prevalence and costs of Uber and food delivery in European cities compare to US cities? I don’t know myself, just wondering how this difference effects the end consumer.
- furyg3 4y ago
  Here in Amsterdam, the only drivers that are allowed to drive for Uber are licensed taxi drivers. They tried using scabs here but the city ended that pretty quickly.
- teetertater 4y ago
  Uber exists in Vienna but I've never found a reason to use it. Public transport is amazing, and the only time I would need a car (to the airport at night), taxis are cheaper
- concordDance 4y ago
  User costs the same as old taxis where I live and there's no reason to use it.
  - rekoil 4y ago
    Well the apps are better, but that's about it for incentives to use Uber/Bolt.
- a012 4y ago
  My view from a few times in Europe is, public transport is preferred during the day, but if you want to go out late in the evening ride sharing and/or taxi are way more convenient because there would be limited train/bus working.
- atchoo 4y ago
  Uber taxis have died in my UK city. The quality was always weak compared to the very good taxi services which was perfectly fine pre-Uber. Uber had vouchers and a marketing push that made it a thing but people can't get rides now. Rental electric scooters are dominant now. Food delivery use is declining with the cost of living problems people are facing. Anecdotally I saw it was making people feel bad so it's a habit people have wanted to break - junk food, cold, missing items and paying the price of a week's worth of groceries... ugh... it made people hate themselves but they kept doing it because the convenience was like a drug. Where I live in the city, everyone has a dozen food outlets within a five minute walk so it was never a rational choice.
  - iLoveOncall 4y ago
    Which UK city do you live in? In London, real taxis are 2 or 3 times as expensive as Uber, so Uber and others are very much in use, both for taxi services and for food delivery services.
    - atchoo 4y ago
      I won't say which city but London cabs are about twice as expensive as here which will be a factor. I only ever took one Uber in my city - it took a really bad route and cost more than a normal cab for the same destination. If it had taken a sensible route then it might have been a few percent cheaper but not much. The experience was bad enough not to gamble with it again.
- pas 4y ago
  Budapest (no labor contract required for either): Taxi services have licensing requirements and the rates are set by the government (Uber left the market), typical ride is 10-30 EUR. (Eg. airport to city center is 30+, also around 30+ min.) Food delivery can be done by anyone, no licensing requirements. Around 700 HUF (about 2 EUR).
wilg 4y ago
I'd be curious to know how this actually breaks down at the end of the day, in dollars, if you were to fully account for all the money. For example, factor in the cost of getting nonemployer health insurance through an exchange, whatever the equivalent of a pension would be such as using an IRA, etc. (Not sure what "payroll and income taxes" mean in this context.) I don't have a clear sense of how it all nets out, besides loose high-level mostly political assumptions about various social programs that give me a vague sense Europe is going to be better here. Assuming someone was able to take advantage of all the various programs and whatnot in both the US and EU, how does the actual efficiency of delivering these services net out, fully considered. I wouldn't be surprised with a result that showed it is actualy more similar than you'd think, but I also wouldn't be surprised to learn that Europe is doing significantly better on this metric. I just don't know!
- lm28469 4y ago
  If you remove pension and healthcare alone that's probably not too far from 30% in most EU country (+ the matching from your employer), you also lose paid vacation, parental leave, unemployment benefits, &c. I'm not even sure getting twice the hourly rate would make up for it, at least not for the average Joe. Now it's all nice and fun when you're an IT contractor charging 60$+ per hour, when you're a uber driver making on average 18$ an hour (according to google) it's not that bright, and you still have to maintain your car, pay for gas, &c. > how does the actual efficiency of delivering these services net out If you're at the bottom, as uber contractors are, you'll have a better time in Europe, if you're in the top tier and can afford private health insurance, private unemployment benefits, &c. you probably have better services in the US, at a cost I lived in both systems and I'd say the EU one brings an overall peace of mind you can't replicate in the US unless you're quite rich
pas 4y ago
You can deliver people or food as an entrepreneur (sub)contractor in Hungary. I would be surprised if all 20+ countries were unanimous on this.
weberer 4y ago
No, that is wrong. At least in Finland, Wolt drivers are independent contractors. Their entire delivery fleet is composed of third world immigrants who are willing to work for peanuts for no benefits. It is exploitative and the current government doesn't want to do anything to change it. Whenever I see a post on HN that says "In Europe, blah blah blah" it is bullshit 80% of the time. Sometimes the poster is extrapolating laws from his country to the other 43 countries on the continent, but usually it is just completely made up bullshit based on wishful thinking. I've learned to never trust these comments unless they provide a source. https://wolt.com/pages/en/fin/courier-center-faq-finland#link-5 https://wolt.com/pages/en/fin/courier-center-faq-finland#lin... >Are Courier Partners employees of Wolt? >No. Courier Partners are not employees of Wolt, they don’t have a boss or predetermined work shifts. Wolt Courier Partners are contractors, Wolt pays for each task a Courier Partner has committed to deliver and has completed. >Like all entrepreneurs, Courier Partners are in charge of their own: taxes, driving log, insurances, compulsory motor vehicle insurance (if they make deliveries with a car or a scooter), pension security, and financial security during periods of illness and unemployment. >Like all entrepreneurs/independent contractors, Courier Partners are in charge of their own financial security during periods of illness and unemployment. In practice, this means that Wolt does not provide compensation for sick leave or health services on days when Courier Partners are not able to make deliveries. >Everyone who has a municipality of residence in Finland is entitled to use public healthcare services. As an entrepreneur, Courier Partners are encouraged to consider arranging occupational health care coverage for themselves. Public medical centers and private hospitals can help Courier Partners with matters regarding occupational health care.
- __s 4y ago
  Generalizing what may be happening in one European country as "In Europe" is like saying the US never lifted prohibition because there's still a few dry counties Tried to find source of which exact place made the changes this person suggested, but only found similarly vague "EU commission proposes..." https://www.wsj.com/articles/uber-to-offer-limited-health-insurance-to-european-drivers-1527082557 https://www.wsj.com/articles/uber-to-offer-limited-health-in... https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/09/uber-deliveroo-and-gig-economy-face-strict-new-rules-in-europe.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/09/uber-deliveroo-and-gig-econo... Meanwhile, maybe they were talking about England, which would be unrelated to any EU commission: https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/uber-to-give-drivers-medical-cover-sick-pay-and-other-benefits https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/uber-to-give-drivers-medic...
throwaway56960 4y ago
No. I live at the borders of 3 EU states (PL, CZ, SK) where in each the drivers/couriers are contractors (self-employed).
throwawaylinux 4y ago
Is healthcare in employment contracts actually standard in Europe?
- throwaway56960 4y ago
  [dead]
- throwaway56960 4y ago
  Healthcare is completely separate from your employment in EU. It's your personal thing to sort out your health insurance, you just notify your employer when you make a change of insurer (because the employer is sending them your money). In some states there's a national insurance plan, in some you have a tax-funded healthcare, and in some you have mandatory health insurance (with private insurers, based on your income, 15-30%).
sourcecodeplz 4y ago
Ok, it's not the same for all. Should it be?

alchemist1e9 4y ago

How does the prevalence and costs of Uber and food delivery in European cities compare to US cities? I don’t know myself, just wondering how this difference effects the end consumer.

furyg3 4y ago
Here in Amsterdam, the only drivers that are allowed to drive for Uber are licensed taxi drivers. They tried using scabs here but the city ended that pretty quickly.
teetertater 4y ago
Uber exists in Vienna but I've never found a reason to use it. Public transport is amazing, and the only time I would need a car (to the airport at night), taxis are cheaper
concordDance 4y ago
User costs the same as old taxis where I live and there's no reason to use it.
- rekoil 4y ago
  Well the apps are better, but that's about it for incentives to use Uber/Bolt.
a012 4y ago
My view from a few times in Europe is, public transport is preferred during the day, but if you want to go out late in the evening ride sharing and/or taxi are way more convenient because there would be limited train/bus working.
atchoo 4y ago
Uber taxis have died in my UK city. The quality was always weak compared to the very good taxi services which was perfectly fine pre-Uber. Uber had vouchers and a marketing push that made it a thing but people can't get rides now. Rental electric scooters are dominant now. Food delivery use is declining with the cost of living problems people are facing. Anecdotally I saw it was making people feel bad so it's a habit people have wanted to break - junk food, cold, missing items and paying the price of a week's worth of groceries... ugh... it made people hate themselves but they kept doing it because the convenience was like a drug. Where I live in the city, everyone has a dozen food outlets within a five minute walk so it was never a rational choice.
- iLoveOncall 4y ago
  Which UK city do you live in? In London, real taxis are 2 or 3 times as expensive as Uber, so Uber and others are very much in use, both for taxi services and for food delivery services.
  - atchoo 4y ago
    I won't say which city but London cabs are about twice as expensive as here which will be a factor. I only ever took one Uber in my city - it took a really bad route and cost more than a normal cab for the same destination. If it had taken a sensible route then it might have been a few percent cheaper but not much. The experience was bad enough not to gamble with it again.
pas 4y ago
Budapest (no labor contract required for either): Taxi services have licensing requirements and the rates are set by the government (Uber left the market), typical ride is 10-30 EUR. (Eg. airport to city center is 30+, also around 30+ min.) Food delivery can be done by anyone, no licensing requirements. Around 700 HUF (about 2 EUR).

wilg 4y ago

I'd be curious to know how this actually breaks down at the end of the day, in dollars, if you were to fully account for all the money. For example, factor in the cost of getting nonemployer health insurance through an exchange, whatever the equivalent of a pension would be such as using an IRA, etc. (Not sure what "payroll and income taxes" mean in this context.) I don't have a clear sense of how it all nets out, besides loose high-level mostly political assumptions about various social programs that give me a vague sense Europe is going to be better here. Assuming someone was able to take advantage of all the various programs and whatnot in both the US and EU, how does the actual efficiency of delivering these services net out, fully considered. I wouldn't be surprised with a result that showed it is actualy more similar than you'd think, but I also wouldn't be surprised to learn that Europe is doing significantly better on this metric. I just don't know!

lm28469 4y ago
If you remove pension and healthcare alone that's probably not too far from 30% in most EU country (+ the matching from your employer), you also lose paid vacation, parental leave, unemployment benefits, &c. I'm not even sure getting twice the hourly rate would make up for it, at least not for the average Joe. Now it's all nice and fun when you're an IT contractor charging 60$+ per hour, when you're a uber driver making on average 18$ an hour (according to google) it's not that bright, and you still have to maintain your car, pay for gas, &c. > how does the actual efficiency of delivering these services net out If you're at the bottom, as uber contractors are, you'll have a better time in Europe, if you're in the top tier and can afford private health insurance, private unemployment benefits, &c. you probably have better services in the US, at a cost I lived in both systems and I'd say the EU one brings an overall peace of mind you can't replicate in the US unless you're quite rich

pas 4y ago

You can deliver people or food as an entrepreneur (sub)contractor in Hungary. I would be surprised if all 20+ countries were unanimous on this.

weberer 4y ago

No, that is wrong. At least in Finland, Wolt drivers are independent contractors. Their entire delivery fleet is composed of third world immigrants who are willing to work for peanuts for no benefits. It is exploitative and the current government doesn't want to do anything to change it. Whenever I see a post on HN that says "In Europe, blah blah blah" it is bullshit 80% of the time. Sometimes the poster is extrapolating laws from his country to the other 43 countries on the continent, but usually it is just completely made up bullshit based on wishful thinking. I've learned to never trust these comments unless they provide a source. https://wolt.com/pages/en/fin/courier-center-faq-finland#link-5 https://wolt.com/pages/en/fin/courier-center-faq-finland#lin... >Are Courier Partners employees of Wolt? >No. Courier Partners are not employees of Wolt, they don’t have a boss or predetermined work shifts. Wolt Courier Partners are contractors, Wolt pays for each task a Courier Partner has committed to deliver and has completed. >Like all entrepreneurs, Courier Partners are in charge of their own: taxes, driving log, insurances, compulsory motor vehicle insurance (if they make deliveries with a car or a scooter), pension security, and financial security during periods of illness and unemployment. >Like all entrepreneurs/independent contractors, Courier Partners are in charge of their own financial security during periods of illness and unemployment. In practice, this means that Wolt does not provide compensation for sick leave or health services on days when Courier Partners are not able to make deliveries. >Everyone who has a municipality of residence in Finland is entitled to use public healthcare services. As an entrepreneur, Courier Partners are encouraged to consider arranging occupational health care coverage for themselves. Public medical centers and private hospitals can help Courier Partners with matters regarding occupational health care.

__s 4y ago
Generalizing what may be happening in one European country as "In Europe" is like saying the US never lifted prohibition because there's still a few dry counties Tried to find source of which exact place made the changes this person suggested, but only found similarly vague "EU commission proposes..." https://www.wsj.com/articles/uber-to-offer-limited-health-insurance-to-european-drivers-1527082557 https://www.wsj.com/articles/uber-to-offer-limited-health-in... https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/09/uber-deliveroo-and-gig-economy-face-strict-new-rules-in-europe.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/09/uber-deliveroo-and-gig-econo... Meanwhile, maybe they were talking about England, which would be unrelated to any EU commission: https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/uber-to-give-drivers-medical-cover-sick-pay-and-other-benefits https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/uber-to-give-drivers-medic...

throwaway56960 4y ago

No. I live at the borders of 3 EU states (PL, CZ, SK) where in each the drivers/couriers are contractors (self-employed).

throwawaylinux 4y ago

Is healthcare in employment contracts actually standard in Europe?

throwaway56960 4y ago
[dead]
throwaway56960 4y ago
Healthcare is completely separate from your employment in EU. It's your personal thing to sort out your health insurance, you just notify your employer when you make a change of insurer (because the employer is sending them your money). In some states there's a national insurance plan, in some you have a tax-funded healthcare, and in some you have mandatory health insurance (with private insurers, based on your income, 15-30%).

sourcecodeplz 4y ago

Ok, it's not the same for all. Should it be?