5 ms·

Same thought as well. I recently self installed an 18k BTU unit. The lines came pre-charged, but I wanted it to be run exactly to length. For someone to come an

Same thought as well. I recently self installed an 18k BTU unit. The lines came pre-charged, but I wanted it to be run exactly to length. For someone to come and do just that part (cut, flare and vacuum/charge the lines) cost me just $150. I got the unit (a pioneer) for under $900. The rest of the world has heat pumps figured out, no need for a tesla-ish version charging a premium. Cost will be the biggest factor for adoption for ElectricAir, imo. If anything, a sweaty startup offering just the install for a nominal fee would do really well here.

hcrisp 4y ago
I agree, in fact a couple things in the pitch don't add up. > ... where the 80M single family homes in the US replace their furnaces with heat pumps. Where did they get this statistic? I already have a heat pump and know many that do too. Are we included in this 80M estimate? What about those in the northern half of the US that also need back-up heat for when it is very cold? They aren't going to replace their furnaces with a heat pump. They might add one to their setup but replace, no. > In addition the process of getting a heat pump is painful, including finding a trustworthy contractor, sorting out financing, and wading through rebates. And finally contractors struggle with installs because of the difficulty of properly sizing the system, and understanding if your duct work is compatible with a heat pump I don't know the contractors they are talking about, but I literally had to say the words "heat pump" to my local Carrier installer and they did all the rest.
- snark42 4y ago
  > What about those in the northern half of the US that also need back-up heat for when it is very cold? This heat pump is supposed to work to -15F and includes back-up resistive heat. Theoretically it can replace a heater and air conditioner anywhere. I know people north of Chicago that use a similar heat pump and resistive backup system and it's been fine to -30F keeping the house at 69F. > I don't know the contractors they are talking about, but I literally had to say the words "heat pump" to my local Carrier installer and they did all the rest. There's definitely a bias against them when natural gas is available. Until probably the past 3-4 years very few HVAC contractors in the midwest were familiar with heat pumps or had bad experiences 5-15 years back and recommended against them as it's "too cold" for them to work here.
  - andrewem 4y ago
    My gas-powered water heater failed in my northern US location. I asked a friend who’s a plumbing engineer (!) who said to get a heat pump. I called the HVAC company which had installed the gas water heater and gas furnace some years before and asked for a heat pump water hearer, and they said oh yeah we sell one of those and people love it. I get the feeling that as you say 5-15 years ago it would have been a different story but now it’s routine.
    - cmui 4y ago
      Heat pump water heaters are great, also a much simpler install than an HVAC system.
  - shjake 4y ago
    Resistive heating is very extremely inefficient compared to gas though
    - m_d_ 4y ago
      Clarification: resistive heating is very near 100% efficient, meaning that all of the energy you pull ends up in the air or water it is meant for. Gas water heating is at the very best ~90-95% efficient (e.g., top-end condensing tankless water heaters), but often as low as 60%: plenty of heat going out the exhaust. You think resistive heating is inefficient because policy has made electricity much more expensive per kwh than gas/oil.
- cmui 4y ago
  Only 17% of homes have heat pumps at the moment. 80M (though I believe its closer to 88M) homes in the US are single family detached homes. What region are you in? Local contractor knowledge around heat pumps is quite regional.
  - malfist 4y ago
    > Only 17% of homes have heat pumps at the moment. 80M (though I believe its closer to 88M) homes in the US are single family detached homes. > ... where the 80M single family homes in the US replace their furnaces with heat pumps. Why would 13.6M homes with heat pumps need to replace their heat pump with a heat pump? What percentage of that 80M single family homes have a climate that can run on heat pumps?
antisthenes 4y ago
> The rest of the world has heat pumps figured out, no need for a tesla-ish version charging a premium. USA has heat pumps (the technology) figured out as well. What the USA does NOT have figured out is how to accomplish trades like HVAC and construction without massive grift.
- c_o_n_v_e_x 4y ago
  >What the USA does NOT have figured out is how to accomplish trades like HVAC and construction without massive grift. The US has professional licensing schemes which increase costs. I had to work 5 years in the field doing HVAC work before even being eligible to get a license. Licensing limits the supply of labor while (in theory) establishing better quality. I've lived in countries with zero professional licensing and the quality of work is atrocious.
  - freeopinion 4y ago
    I live in the USA and have seen plenty of atrocious work. I currently have the best HVAC expert in the world. YMMV.
    - c_o_n_v_e_x 4y ago
      Was said work performed by a licensed individual? Fun fact - In some states, contracts with unlicensed contractors are unenforceable.
      - aidenn0 4y ago
        I have had incredibly atrocious work done by licensed individuals of all stripes. In one case they took out a mechanics lien on the house when I refused to pay for unfinished and shoddy work and then one of their workers assaulted my wife. - Horizontal exhaust run from a furnace that was 25x longer than specified by the manufacturer - Putting registers in very wrong places (like 2 in one room and 0 in another instead of one in each) - (For Electrical) Rather than using junction boxes, just wire-nut together some Romex in random places in the attic.
adventured 4y ago
> The rest of the world has heat pumps figured out A single digit percentage of homes globally are using heat pumps, most of the world does not have it figured out. That's specifically why Electric Air exists, they're chasing what is going to be a gigantic market (if it were already such a figured out market they couldn't get funding without a revolutionary 10x approach, YC would have little interest).
- fomine3 4y ago
  $500 + $150 (install) mini split works fine in Japan and it should be fine for other worlds where central heating isn't a thing. US is one of the richest country and rest of the world spend less.
- yurishimo 4y ago
  Europe as a whole has been utilizing heat pumps for residential heavily over the past decade. With global temperatures rising, heat pump installs in OECD countries are skyrocketing as the climate becomes uncomfortable for larger and larger groups of people. In the Netherlands, I can purchase a minisplit with installation for under €4k. It could get cheaper if I wanted something less powerful. While your point about "single digit percentage[s]" is accurate, it's not helpful when discussing the merits of this product, or the wider industry as a whole in most of western world.
  - adventured 4y ago
    > it's not helpful when discussing the merits of this product Of course it is. How would global market size, present and future, not be helpful as a discussion topic? The parent I replied to was referencing that very issue, directly or indirectly. It indicates heat pumps are still a relatively small market, and the OP company is betting it's going to get a lot larger, meaning there is a landgrab going on right now and they're aiming for capturing a segment of that future market. You contradict your claim that it's not a helpful discussion point in pointing out how usage is skyrocketing (ie the market is getting bigger fast) and having to reference the larger established use in some parts of Europe to try to make your point. You proved it is a pertinent discussion point in trying to claim that it's not.
turtlebits 4y ago
The problem with trying to charge a nominal/flat fee is the same for all contractors. Not all houses are alike, and you'll never know what is inside a wall/attic where a customer wants to install it, or what kind of electrical work will be needed. (might have to run a new 240v line). Dirt work may be required for the exterior condenser.
- dmarlow 4y ago
  Totally get it. If you're into it for a few k to install, that's one thing. To me, the total costs for this seem a bit high. Who knows, maybe with scale things get cheaper. I'm definitely not their target customer, despite wanting to be.

hcrisp 4y ago

I agree, in fact a couple things in the pitch don't add up. > ... where the 80M single family homes in the US replace their furnaces with heat pumps. Where did they get this statistic? I already have a heat pump and know many that do too. Are we included in this 80M estimate? What about those in the northern half of the US that also need back-up heat for when it is very cold? They aren't going to replace their furnaces with a heat pump. They might add one to their setup but replace, no. > In addition the process of getting a heat pump is painful, including finding a trustworthy contractor, sorting out financing, and wading through rebates. And finally contractors struggle with installs because of the difficulty of properly sizing the system, and understanding if your duct work is compatible with a heat pump I don't know the contractors they are talking about, but I literally had to say the words "heat pump" to my local Carrier installer and they did all the rest.

snark42 4y ago
> What about those in the northern half of the US that also need back-up heat for when it is very cold? This heat pump is supposed to work to -15F and includes back-up resistive heat. Theoretically it can replace a heater and air conditioner anywhere. I know people north of Chicago that use a similar heat pump and resistive backup system and it's been fine to -30F keeping the house at 69F. > I don't know the contractors they are talking about, but I literally had to say the words "heat pump" to my local Carrier installer and they did all the rest. There's definitely a bias against them when natural gas is available. Until probably the past 3-4 years very few HVAC contractors in the midwest were familiar with heat pumps or had bad experiences 5-15 years back and recommended against them as it's "too cold" for them to work here.
- andrewem 4y ago
  My gas-powered water heater failed in my northern US location. I asked a friend who’s a plumbing engineer (!) who said to get a heat pump. I called the HVAC company which had installed the gas water heater and gas furnace some years before and asked for a heat pump water hearer, and they said oh yeah we sell one of those and people love it. I get the feeling that as you say 5-15 years ago it would have been a different story but now it’s routine.
  - cmui 4y ago
    Heat pump water heaters are great, also a much simpler install than an HVAC system.
- shjake 4y ago
  Resistive heating is very extremely inefficient compared to gas though
  - m_d_ 4y ago
    Clarification: resistive heating is very near 100% efficient, meaning that all of the energy you pull ends up in the air or water it is meant for. Gas water heating is at the very best ~90-95% efficient (e.g., top-end condensing tankless water heaters), but often as low as 60%: plenty of heat going out the exhaust. You think resistive heating is inefficient because policy has made electricity much more expensive per kwh than gas/oil.
cmui 4y ago
Only 17% of homes have heat pumps at the moment. 80M (though I believe its closer to 88M) homes in the US are single family detached homes. What region are you in? Local contractor knowledge around heat pumps is quite regional.
- malfist 4y ago
  > Only 17% of homes have heat pumps at the moment. 80M (though I believe its closer to 88M) homes in the US are single family detached homes. > ... where the 80M single family homes in the US replace their furnaces with heat pumps. Why would 13.6M homes with heat pumps need to replace their heat pump with a heat pump? What percentage of that 80M single family homes have a climate that can run on heat pumps?

antisthenes 4y ago

> The rest of the world has heat pumps figured out, no need for a tesla-ish version charging a premium. USA has heat pumps (the technology) figured out as well. What the USA does NOT have figured out is how to accomplish trades like HVAC and construction without massive grift.

c_o_n_v_e_x 4y ago
>What the USA does NOT have figured out is how to accomplish trades like HVAC and construction without massive grift. The US has professional licensing schemes which increase costs. I had to work 5 years in the field doing HVAC work before even being eligible to get a license. Licensing limits the supply of labor while (in theory) establishing better quality. I've lived in countries with zero professional licensing and the quality of work is atrocious.
- freeopinion 4y ago
  I live in the USA and have seen plenty of atrocious work. I currently have the best HVAC expert in the world. YMMV.
  - c_o_n_v_e_x 4y ago
    Was said work performed by a licensed individual? Fun fact - In some states, contracts with unlicensed contractors are unenforceable.
    - aidenn0 4y ago
      I have had incredibly atrocious work done by licensed individuals of all stripes. In one case they took out a mechanics lien on the house when I refused to pay for unfinished and shoddy work and then one of their workers assaulted my wife. - Horizontal exhaust run from a furnace that was 25x longer than specified by the manufacturer - Putting registers in very wrong places (like 2 in one room and 0 in another instead of one in each) - (For Electrical) Rather than using junction boxes, just wire-nut together some Romex in random places in the attic.

adventured 4y ago

> The rest of the world has heat pumps figured out A single digit percentage of homes globally are using heat pumps, most of the world does not have it figured out. That's specifically why Electric Air exists, they're chasing what is going to be a gigantic market (if it were already such a figured out market they couldn't get funding without a revolutionary 10x approach, YC would have little interest).

fomine3 4y ago
$500 + $150 (install) mini split works fine in Japan and it should be fine for other worlds where central heating isn't a thing. US is one of the richest country and rest of the world spend less.
yurishimo 4y ago
Europe as a whole has been utilizing heat pumps for residential heavily over the past decade. With global temperatures rising, heat pump installs in OECD countries are skyrocketing as the climate becomes uncomfortable for larger and larger groups of people. In the Netherlands, I can purchase a minisplit with installation for under €4k. It could get cheaper if I wanted something less powerful. While your point about "single digit percentage[s]" is accurate, it's not helpful when discussing the merits of this product, or the wider industry as a whole in most of western world.
- adventured 4y ago
  > it's not helpful when discussing the merits of this product Of course it is. How would global market size, present and future, not be helpful as a discussion topic? The parent I replied to was referencing that very issue, directly or indirectly. It indicates heat pumps are still a relatively small market, and the OP company is betting it's going to get a lot larger, meaning there is a landgrab going on right now and they're aiming for capturing a segment of that future market. You contradict your claim that it's not a helpful discussion point in pointing out how usage is skyrocketing (ie the market is getting bigger fast) and having to reference the larger established use in some parts of Europe to try to make your point. You proved it is a pertinent discussion point in trying to claim that it's not.

turtlebits 4y ago

The problem with trying to charge a nominal/flat fee is the same for all contractors. Not all houses are alike, and you'll never know what is inside a wall/attic where a customer wants to install it, or what kind of electrical work will be needed. (might have to run a new 240v line). Dirt work may be required for the exterior condenser.

dmarlow 4y ago
Totally get it. If you're into it for a few k to install, that's one thing. To me, the total costs for this seem a bit high. Who knows, maybe with scale things get cheaper. I'm definitely not their target customer, despite wanting to be.