9 ms·

I guess I'm wondering what this offers over calling an HVAC company and having them install a heat pump system. The system seems expensive at $14,000 for a 48k

by mdasen 4y ago

I guess I'm wondering what this offers over calling an HVAC company and having them install a heat pump system. The system seems expensive at $14,000 for a 48k BTU 18 SEER system. It looks like I can get that for $4,000. Is the sleek software and design of your units worth the extra $10,000, especially when I'm not really going to see my air handler frequently? I do like that it monitors CO2 and offers humidification, but presumably that means that it needs a hookup to a water line for humidification (not that easy since my air handler is in my attic) and a source of fresh air (so presumably a hole in the roof or something to accommodate that). I'm also curious if the mini-split system on your site would also handle fresh air and humidification. Wouldn't that require each air handler to have access to fresh air and water? I'm also curious why 18 SEER? Are there diminishing returns above that? I'm in a pretty cold climate so I've been thinking it would be better to get a 20 SEER unit. My suggestion for your company: Add stoves and hot water heaters to your offering. I'm not going to switch to a heat pump and continue to have natural gas for my stove and hot water heater. If I'm going to put in a heat pump, I'd want to get natural gas out of my place. I don't want to have to get a heat pump from you, then call someone else to deal with my water heater and another person to deal with my stove. I'm certainly not an expert on this so maybe you'll just say that you're using more reliable equipment than the stuff I've seen, but it seems like something I'm more inclined to go with a local HVAC company than a startup.

0xffff2 4y ago
I mean, they estimate $10k for installation, so you are calling an HVAC company and having them install a heat pump system. It's not clear to me from the website if the idea is that they are actually integrating installation in-house or if they will contract out the work, in which case it's likely the exact same installers as if you ordered a system from somewhere like Home Depot.
- yencabulator 4y ago
  Well, at least the ones that agree to work with it. For example, the most reputable HVAC company I can find locally has picked their favorite 1-2 brands and largely only installs those, so they know what they're bound to be repairing later.
  - cstejerean 4y ago
    They also tend to only install units that you can't buy directly and only quote for total cost not parts and labor so you cannot easily tell just how much they are charging for the labor.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
      What difference would the breakdown on parts and labor make to you as a prospective client, given that you cannot buy the units directly?
      - cstejerean 4y ago
        It must make a difference otherwise they'd provide the breakdown when asked. I suspect most consumers don't know how much the appliance should cost, it is a complex piece of machinery. But the labor part is easier to reason about. So seeing $12k all in to install a heat pump might seem reasonable, people will shrug and say heatpumps must be expensive, but if they see that's $5k for the heat pump and $7k for the labor then it doesn't seem so reasonable. And there are alternatives. You can buy comparable units from other manufacturers directly and shop for labor only (harder to find but not impossible). And there are sealed DIY units you can install yourself.
      - briHass 4y ago
        The answer to this, assuming the breakdown was actually honest, is exactly why they don't typically provide a breakdown. You would see an hourly labor rate that would make a lawyer blush. There's just something unpalatable to most people about seeing a $200-300+/hr labor rate, especially considering that the average person paying that rate probably make closer to $20-40/hr.
      - hattmall 4y ago
        You could buy an equivalent system, they just use special contractor only models so you cant easily see the price online.
dmarlow 4y ago
Same thought as well. I recently self installed an 18k BTU unit. The lines came pre-charged, but I wanted it to be run exactly to length. For someone to come and do just that part (cut, flare and vacuum/charge the lines) cost me just $150. I got the unit (a pioneer) for under $900. The rest of the world has heat pumps figured out, no need for a tesla-ish version charging a premium. Cost will be the biggest factor for adoption for ElectricAir, imo. If anything, a sweaty startup offering just the install for a nominal fee would do really well here.
- hcrisp 4y ago
  I agree, in fact a couple things in the pitch don't add up. > ... where the 80M single family homes in the US replace their furnaces with heat pumps. Where did they get this statistic? I already have a heat pump and know many that do too. Are we included in this 80M estimate? What about those in the northern half of the US that also need back-up heat for when it is very cold? They aren't going to replace their furnaces with a heat pump. They might add one to their setup but replace, no. > In addition the process of getting a heat pump is painful, including finding a trustworthy contractor, sorting out financing, and wading through rebates. And finally contractors struggle with installs because of the difficulty of properly sizing the system, and understanding if your duct work is compatible with a heat pump I don't know the contractors they are talking about, but I literally had to say the words "heat pump" to my local Carrier installer and they did all the rest.
  - snark42 4y ago
    > What about those in the northern half of the US that also need back-up heat for when it is very cold? This heat pump is supposed to work to -15F and includes back-up resistive heat. Theoretically it can replace a heater and air conditioner anywhere. I know people north of Chicago that use a similar heat pump and resistive backup system and it's been fine to -30F keeping the house at 69F. > I don't know the contractors they are talking about, but I literally had to say the words "heat pump" to my local Carrier installer and they did all the rest. There's definitely a bias against them when natural gas is available. Until probably the past 3-4 years very few HVAC contractors in the midwest were familiar with heat pumps or had bad experiences 5-15 years back and recommended against them as it's "too cold" for them to work here.
ryantgtg 4y ago
From your comment, it sounds like managed to find a price for this unit. I’m on my phone, and the preorder page says nothing more than a $100 deposit. Why would anyone order this without the full price bring front and center? Is this a mistake or are these people hiding this info?

by mdasen 4y ago

0xffff2 4y ago

I mean, they estimate $10k for installation, so you are calling an HVAC company and having them install a heat pump system. It's not clear to me from the website if the idea is that they are actually integrating installation in-house or if they will contract out the work, in which case it's likely the exact same installers as if you ordered a system from somewhere like Home Depot.

yencabulator 4y ago
Well, at least the ones that agree to work with it. For example, the most reputable HVAC company I can find locally has picked their favorite 1-2 brands and largely only installs those, so they know what they're bound to be repairing later.
- cstejerean 4y ago
  They also tend to only install units that you can't buy directly and only quote for total cost not parts and labor so you cannot easily tell just how much they are charging for the labor.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
    What difference would the breakdown on parts and labor make to you as a prospective client, given that you cannot buy the units directly?
    - cstejerean 4y ago
      It must make a difference otherwise they'd provide the breakdown when asked. I suspect most consumers don't know how much the appliance should cost, it is a complex piece of machinery. But the labor part is easier to reason about. So seeing $12k all in to install a heat pump might seem reasonable, people will shrug and say heatpumps must be expensive, but if they see that's $5k for the heat pump and $7k for the labor then it doesn't seem so reasonable. And there are alternatives. You can buy comparable units from other manufacturers directly and shop for labor only (harder to find but not impossible). And there are sealed DIY units you can install yourself.
    - briHass 4y ago
      The answer to this, assuming the breakdown was actually honest, is exactly why they don't typically provide a breakdown. You would see an hourly labor rate that would make a lawyer blush. There's just something unpalatable to most people about seeing a $200-300+/hr labor rate, especially considering that the average person paying that rate probably make closer to $20-40/hr.
    - hattmall 4y ago
      You could buy an equivalent system, they just use special contractor only models so you cant easily see the price online.

dmarlow 4y ago

Same thought as well. I recently self installed an 18k BTU unit. The lines came pre-charged, but I wanted it to be run exactly to length. For someone to come and do just that part (cut, flare and vacuum/charge the lines) cost me just $150. I got the unit (a pioneer) for under $900. The rest of the world has heat pumps figured out, no need for a tesla-ish version charging a premium. Cost will be the biggest factor for adoption for ElectricAir, imo. If anything, a sweaty startup offering just the install for a nominal fee would do really well here.

hcrisp 4y ago
I agree, in fact a couple things in the pitch don't add up. > ... where the 80M single family homes in the US replace their furnaces with heat pumps. Where did they get this statistic? I already have a heat pump and know many that do too. Are we included in this 80M estimate? What about those in the northern half of the US that also need back-up heat for when it is very cold? They aren't going to replace their furnaces with a heat pump. They might add one to their setup but replace, no. > In addition the process of getting a heat pump is painful, including finding a trustworthy contractor, sorting out financing, and wading through rebates. And finally contractors struggle with installs because of the difficulty of properly sizing the system, and understanding if your duct work is compatible with a heat pump I don't know the contractors they are talking about, but I literally had to say the words "heat pump" to my local Carrier installer and they did all the rest.
- snark42 4y ago
  > What about those in the northern half of the US that also need back-up heat for when it is very cold? This heat pump is supposed to work to -15F and includes back-up resistive heat. Theoretically it can replace a heater and air conditioner anywhere. I know people north of Chicago that use a similar heat pump and resistive backup system and it's been fine to -30F keeping the house at 69F. > I don't know the contractors they are talking about, but I literally had to say the words "heat pump" to my local Carrier installer and they did all the rest. There's definitely a bias against them when natural gas is available. Until probably the past 3-4 years very few HVAC contractors in the midwest were familiar with heat pumps or had bad experiences 5-15 years back and recommended against them as it's "too cold" for them to work here.

ryantgtg 4y ago

From your comment, it sounds like managed to find a price for this unit. I’m on my phone, and the preorder page says nothing more than a $100 deposit. Why would anyone order this without the full price bring front and center? Is this a mistake or are these people hiding this info?