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Chris, one of my biggest worries is that your startup will get acquired or go out of business and then the firmware will leave me with a $14,000 brick. What if

by z3ugma 4y ago

Chris, one of my biggest worries is that your startup will get acquired or go out of business and then the firmware will leave me with a $14,000 brick. What if I want to keep using the cloud-based thermostat when your servers get shut off or moved to another system, or if something like Google Nest closing down their API happens after you've exited? This is an expensive system with an expected long life, and I'd want some guarantees that I can control it entirely myself.

dawnerd 4y ago
My thoughts too. Local heating/cooling should not be tied to the cloud period. If it doesn't use the normal wiring people already have it's a hard pass from me.
- startupsfail 4y ago
  Maybe Europe market is ready for this. Considering how unstable the residential electrical and internet grid is in the US (instead of being dug in, into the ground all the cables are hanging between the trees and there are constant failures), relying on that AND on the cloud for an essential service is a no-go.
  - eldaisfish 4y ago
    the US power grid is not in any way unreliable. US residents enjoy some of the highest grid availability figures for anywhere in the world. Sure, sometimes things go horribly wrong but their system is not unreliable by design as this comment insinuates.
  - pridkett 4y ago
    I live in a rural part of New England with an electricity company that everyone dislikes because it's super expensive and sometimes things go bad. Since 2010 we've had the following major outages: * October 2011 Snow Storm - Lost power for 4 days, didn't end up being that cold * October 2019 Thunderstorms - Lost power for 3 days, thankfully generator kept the house going * August 2020 Tropical Storm Isaias - Caused widespread grid damage, but only lost power for 18 hours. Internet was out for 36 hours. * August 2021 Hurricane Henri - Widespread grid damage, lost power for about 6 hours. By this point I had powerwalls. I didn't even turn down the air conditioner. That's it - every other outage has been a few hours. And that's living in a rural area that is heavily wooded with most of the power lines above ground and often long runs close to trees. If I lived in a suburb or city those times would be even less. The grid in the United States, despite some widespread and documented regional failures (2021 Texas, 2003 NE Blackout), is remarkably resilient.
    - drusenko 4y ago
      I would say it depends on where you live. The grid in CA has (in some parts) not been reliable for 5+ years. To Chris' point below though, it's not really relevant because gas furnaces need electricity to operate, too.
  - cmui 4y ago
    A common misconception is that you can use your forced air furnace when the power is out - you can't because the blower relies on electricity to move air around. Your point on the cloud service is a good one, which is why cloud services are value-add but unnecessary for core system functionality, ie your system works if there's no internet.
    - startupsfail 4y ago
      In California power outages are very frequent (PG&E is now cutting off the residential power upfront, to avoid fires and associated liability). I’ve experienced 4-5 outages last year, a couple were local, a couple were widespread. One lasted 2 days. Fortunately I do have a small 3.2kWh battery backup power, so I can keep the refrigerator from defrosting. I do think that this is sufficient to power the air furnace as well, but I haven’t tried. The residential internet outages also are pretty frequent, but we don’t notice these as much as power outages.
- s_tec 4y ago
  Normal wiring is terrible, though, since it only supports turning the equipment on & off. If you have a variable-speed fan and variable-speed pumps, it would be nice for the thermostat to throttle those based on the load, but it can't. If this company has a solution for variable-speed equipment, the best thing they can do is publish an open standard. Suppose the thermostat talks to the equipment over CAN bus, for instance, using a well-documented protocol. If they go out of business, anybody can hack together a compatible aftermarket thermostat. A lot of solar equipment is already going this way, with batteries talking to inverters over open CAN bus protocols. As one of the biggest energy loads, the HVAC equipment should get in the game too.
  - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
    What do you mean? There are variable speed furnaces that can be controlled via a normal thermostat and a 4-wire thermostat setup. Like you said, though, there's no open standard so that can be an issue, but it's standard wiring. https://www.pickhvac.com/thermostat/ https://www.pickhvac.com/thermostat/ (halfway down - "Communicating HVAC System") https://www.pickhvac.com/central-air-conditioner/extras/communicating-vs-non-communicating/ https://www.pickhvac.com/central-air-conditioner/extras/comm... (deeper dive into Communicating vs Non-Communicating HVAC systems)
    - s_tec 4y ago
      Well, that just makes it worse! OP strongly implies that there is no good variable-speed solution, but if the industry already has an assortment of products, what exactly are they even selling?!
      - aintgonnatakeit 4y ago
        I think you have to go thru a licensed HVAC installer to get an inverter system. These guys are DTC.
      - notJim 4y ago
        I think you're misreading the OP slightly. There's no cross-compatible system for variable equipment, which is why the OP says you can't use variable speed equipment with Nest. Nest is basically a really fancy switch only. To use variable speed equipment, you have to use your manufacturer's proprietary system. I'm not positive this is right, but I'm pretty sure it's backed up by https://www.pickhvac.com/central-air-conditioner/extras/communicating-vs-non-communicating/ https://www.pickhvac.com/central-air-conditioner/extras/comm... So basically, the premise of this product is that the proprietary system they design will be nicer than the proprietary systems HVAC manufacturer's design. That's probably true, but as an owner of a Carrier proprietary system, it's totally fine.
- toss1 4y ago
  Exactly. I will not even buy a $100 remote-internet-controlled thermostat that relies on a cloud service [0], and I've looked for both my home and my shop. I would not even consider buying the hardware that keeps my pipes from freezing if it depends on an internet connection. I'm happy if there are non-critical OPTIONS available that use the internet (e.g., as another poster mentioned, available optimizations based on real-time elec rates, etc.), but if there is any key function that'll fail without an internet connection, that's immediate disqualification, hard nope, not looking anymore. Period, full stop, even if it is "free" as in beer. OTOH, if OP can deliver a true stand-alone system and guarantees that it will never require a connection for any core function (as above, optional ok), then he'll have a large market. [0] any remote-via-internet control function should be able to directly access my IP, static or transient. Not only are non-static home IPs actually quite durable in my experience, there are a variety of easy solutions to keep track of the home IP. Yes, some of those are cloud services, but they are not tied to any hardware. Edit: That said, I'm ok with requiring wiring beyond the normal thermostat-HVAC wiring.
- soheil 4y ago
  It's hard pass for you because you know what a cloud is. Many don't and you don't know what many know.
- thehappypm 4y ago
  Counterpoint — I have an app for my Mitsubishi heat pump and use it all the time. It’s way more convenient and lets me hyper optimize my house. I actually don’t even use the physical ones at all anymore
  - epanchin 4y ago
    Are you tied to the app?
    - thehappypm 4y ago
      No, my phone is wireless
      - vosper 4y ago
        Pretty sure they were asking if you could still access all the functionality currently provided by the app if it were to go away for some reason (who can see the future? It's not impossible Mitsubishi goes out of business or the app gets cancelled/pulled after some number of years)
      - shagie 4y ago
        If you lost your phone, would you still be able to manage the heat pump through other interfaces? If the app wasn't updated for ${latest phone OS}, would you be be unable to upgrade the phone OS?
    - SamBam 4y ago
      Mitsubishi heat pumps has a local thermostat that operates by remote, no cloud access needed, so if the app's servers go down it will still function.
    - aintgonnatakeit 4y ago
      Yes s/he is. Mitsubishi force you to use their Kumo Cloud controls, which are 1) expensive (a few kk) and 2) require cloud. Supposedly Mitsubishi is replacing Kumo with something else, but that just makes the problem worse.
- RetpolineDrama 4y ago
  >If it doesn't use the normal wiring people already have it's a hard pass from me. Why? a real smart thermostat can just use the existing wiring for power and then use IP over Wifi or Matter/Thread to communicate. Way better than the crappy wiring in most people's houses for thermostat control.
  - dawnerd 4y ago
    Because HVAC in theory should outlive most other standards that have come and gone. Its totally fine to built on top of it, but using basic hard wiring to turn on/off is essential - even if just as a fallback. in 20 years the hvac should still be working, but will the wifi spec it shipped with? What about matter/thread?
    - Melatonic 4y ago
      Theres certainly a middleground between "must use existing old ass 2 wire setups" and "requires fancy always on cloud subscription" Surely we could come up with a device that might require an electrician to run a few extra wires (or maybe even larger wires or something) and still run perfectly fine offline, for as long as the hardware functions, with some type of integrated manual controller. And of course this device could also have an internet option and an app and wifi for all of the fancy stuff.
- vladgur 4y ago
  I agree. Use standardized wiring and let me control it from a $100 smart thermostat that i can replace if it becomes obsolete. If i want HomeAssistant integration, ill buy an HA-compatible thermostat. I dont want an expensive HVAC system to be in a walled garden of its own.
  - coryrc 4y ago
    You lose about 30% efficiency using "standardized wiring" with an inverter heat pump instead of a communicating thermostat, because running a heat pump at 33% power continuously instead of 100% power 20 minutes of every hour results in a COP about 30% higher.
    - raisedbyninjas 4y ago
      Why do inverter heat pump need proprietary wiring? Everything I've seen indicates inverter and dual stage heat pumps can use standard wiring.
      - coryrc 4y ago
        They don't need it, they just don't get all their rated efficiency, which is much higher than single-speed systems. Single-speed systems commonly have cooling efficiencies around 10-14 SEER, the Gree Sapphire is 38 SEER. If you ran it at only full power, it'd probably only be 30 SEER.
- paxys 4y ago
  Disagree. There are a lot of advantages in being able to coordinate heating/cooling and general home electricity use based on stuff like weather forecasts, your electric company's rate tiers (including working around peak hours), when you are home or about to come home etc. Of course there should be a fallback mode where the system can work 100% offline, but being connected is definitely worth it.
aaomidi 4y ago
I will not buy this without a fully unlocked everything. This company is going to wait a few years and then charge you a shit ton for subscription to keep using your device. No thanks, and honestly whoever goes with this is going to regret it if they don't make changes to their software. Pick one: - Sell the device - Sell the software If you do both, you're going to alienate your customers and get regulatory wrath on you. Don't emulate Apple. They're going to get their ass handed to them in the near future. Take it even a step further and make the code AGPL. That way you know you're protected if a company decides to steal from you.
- cmui 4y ago
  I understand the concern around lock in. There is a technical hurdle to optimized thermostat <--> variable speed heat pump interop. You have to turn the temperature error between setpoint and actual temperature into a compressor speed command and also factor in behavior such as defrost, compressor cycling limits, etc. So you have to have a communicating thermostat to fully utilize the efficiency of these variable speed heat pump systems, not just a collection of analog on/off wires.
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    That's totally fair and reasonable. I still will demand that it be able to function in a bang-bang mode using dry contacts, especially from a new entrant to the market, because there's a fair risk that the unit will be in my house longer than your company is in business.
    - cmui 4y ago
      This behavior is how current variable speed heat pumps operate with Ecobee and Nest. You leave efficiency on the table, but I get it provides some future proofing assurance for homeowners. Definitely something we can integrate into the board.
      - joelfried 4y ago
        > I get it provides some future proofing assurance I don't think you're getting it, and a lot of us around here want you to. If I were actively researching heat pumps (a thing most homeowners do before dropping 4-5 figures on ANY hardware), if you are locking me into your ecosystem -- or even have the appearance of locking me into your ecosystem -- your product is not getting onto any short list from me or likely anyone else around here. All of us -- every tech person who has ever gotten into home automation in a real way -- has thrown out some hardware rendered useless by a company. We've already seen this play out. You're an unknown and so are the riskiest kind of company to buy into. You need to get this -- deeply -- if you want to sell to this market. The pull quote above makes me want to run for the hills.
cmui 4y ago
I totally get this concern. Any good piece of critical home infrastructure should be able to operate without the cloud or an internet connection. Following this logic the thermostat + heat pump combination can operate fine without the cloud. You leave some optimized behavior on the table like demand response and weather response, but everything else will work (you'd have to manually enter your TOU rate plan to get that energy optimization).
- dawnerd 4y ago
  that's good to hear, I'd make sure it's mentioned in the FAQ at the bottom.
- daredoes 4y ago
  Would your company be willing to provide an open-source local-first websocket-based integration with https://www.home-assistant.io/ https://www.home-assistant.io/ or use the new Matter + Thread standard to provide it for everyone? If that's available, this would be my top choice as I'm actively shopping for all-electric heat pumps
  - stevenpetryk 4y ago
    Or the company could at least leave it easy to hack :)
    - walterbell 4y ago
      Implement with a swappable compute module?
      - samstave 4y ago
        We need an entire industry of 'appliance based Rpi's to be able to act as modules in a standardly compute plug-in-form factor (just like blades) with a unit preloaded with a config and just swap out inter connects - ich that we have an appliance hub, the solar/whatever input pushes power and the distributor determines where to push or halt the power - with a selector that tells me the input costs, and output draws, such that it can have a system to auto switch to best performance. Honywell missed the mark on the importance of thermostats on the economy.
londons_explore 4y ago
I'd want to see a guarantee of "We will either keep running the servers forever, maintaining all current features, or we will opensource all the server side code, so you or someone else can keep running it". I'd want the code handed over to a third party to guarantee this (so the company can't walk back on their promise).
- mrits 4y ago
  Statically there is a great chance the people that would guarantee will be replaced upon failure or success in an early state startup.
- mtrpcic 4y ago
  If the server code is too complex, at least give me an OpenAPI spec (or equivalent) that the server must adhere to, so I can spin something simple up on a Raspberry PI to solve the problem myself.
- pagutierrezn 4y ago
  This went by the name: Source Code Scrow https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_code_escrow https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_code_escrow
soheil 4y ago
It'd be super helpful to mention the total cost will be close to $14k on the $100 pre-order page or at least somewhere near the top of the homepage. Also probably one of the implicit reasons this comment got upvoted.
- cmui 4y ago
  Yeah, not a bad idea to place pricing (or a link to it) on the preorder page, in addition to main page.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
masterj 4y ago
The software is certainly a concern, but I would also heavily emphasize the ability to get spare parts and service quickly. If your heat goes out in the middle of winter you don't want to wait weeks for spare parts, or be unable to get them at all if the company goes out of business.
- cmui 4y ago
  Yes, making spare parts and service work is super important. We'll likely set up regional distribution points for spare parts so anything critical can be easily sent next day.
  - potatolicious 4y ago
    What about labor? I'm pretty handy but there are definitely parts of my HVAC system where I'd be unable/unwilling to DIY it. I currently have a local HVAC contractor on-retainer for same-day emergency appointments - and honestly I don't think I'd be willing to consider anything less since my current heat pump is my exclusive source of heating in this house. I'm in a temperate climate so there's little actual danger, but the idea of freezing/roasting my butt off for multiple days to wait for parts/labor is deeply unattractive.
    - cmui 4y ago
      Yeah, good question. The system is not meant to be DIY. The same contractor that does install also offers service. Logistics for replacement parts is important we will have quick, easy access for contractors.
      - bumby 4y ago
        Have you worked on creating a network of qualified contractors? In my region, there are lots of contractors who are little more than unreliable DIYers, especially in the mechanical space. My hesitancy is in the ongoing service. I’ve looked into geo-coupled heat pumps but the lack of qualified contractors locally deterred me.
  - 4y ago
pshirshov 4y ago
Just buy an LG heat pump. They have cloud capabilities, though you have to install a separate module for that.
1970-01-01 4y ago
I have the same question, but on the hardware side. Since HVAC is critical infrastructure for a home, where will replacement parts be in a decade?
jtagen 4y ago
Wait, is this not going to have the usual "pair of wires you short to turn it on" feature of every furnace made so far? That's the ultimate control for when all the cloud features disappear and would be a deal-breaker for me.
ajross 4y ago
FWIW: the "cloud based" part is the flexible bit, it's the fixed equipment that you're stuck with for two decades. I see the problem as exactly the opposite: I could in principle switch from a Carrier to a Lennox to a Nest to an EcoBee in probably 10 minutes, but I can't, because all the equipment manufacturers are shipping their own garbage with closed protocols. So I had to fight with a contractor to get them to install our fancy new heat pump in "traditional dumb thermostat" mode, and then handed them the Nest box (which doesn't speak Carrier-ese) and put it in the contract that it had to work. It took them several hours extra to do things the "portable" way. They were absolutely not prepared even though the manufacturer claims this works just fine. So... I think there's absolutely a spot in the market for an Electric Air that can make this work cleanly. The existing HVAC players are really, really bad at this.

by z3ugma 4y ago

dawnerd 4y ago

My thoughts too. Local heating/cooling should not be tied to the cloud period. If it doesn't use the normal wiring people already have it's a hard pass from me.

startupsfail 4y ago
Maybe Europe market is ready for this. Considering how unstable the residential electrical and internet grid is in the US (instead of being dug in, into the ground all the cables are hanging between the trees and there are constant failures), relying on that AND on the cloud for an essential service is a no-go.
- eldaisfish 4y ago
  the US power grid is not in any way unreliable. US residents enjoy some of the highest grid availability figures for anywhere in the world. Sure, sometimes things go horribly wrong but their system is not unreliable by design as this comment insinuates.
- pridkett 4y ago
  I live in a rural part of New England with an electricity company that everyone dislikes because it's super expensive and sometimes things go bad. Since 2010 we've had the following major outages: * October 2011 Snow Storm - Lost power for 4 days, didn't end up being that cold * October 2019 Thunderstorms - Lost power for 3 days, thankfully generator kept the house going * August 2020 Tropical Storm Isaias - Caused widespread grid damage, but only lost power for 18 hours. Internet was out for 36 hours. * August 2021 Hurricane Henri - Widespread grid damage, lost power for about 6 hours. By this point I had powerwalls. I didn't even turn down the air conditioner. That's it - every other outage has been a few hours. And that's living in a rural area that is heavily wooded with most of the power lines above ground and often long runs close to trees. If I lived in a suburb or city those times would be even less. The grid in the United States, despite some widespread and documented regional failures (2021 Texas, 2003 NE Blackout), is remarkably resilient.
  - drusenko 4y ago
    I would say it depends on where you live. The grid in CA has (in some parts) not been reliable for 5+ years. To Chris' point below though, it's not really relevant because gas furnaces need electricity to operate, too.
- cmui 4y ago
  A common misconception is that you can use your forced air furnace when the power is out - you can't because the blower relies on electricity to move air around. Your point on the cloud service is a good one, which is why cloud services are value-add but unnecessary for core system functionality, ie your system works if there's no internet.
  - startupsfail 4y ago
    In California power outages are very frequent (PG&E is now cutting off the residential power upfront, to avoid fires and associated liability). I’ve experienced 4-5 outages last year, a couple were local, a couple were widespread. One lasted 2 days. Fortunately I do have a small 3.2kWh battery backup power, so I can keep the refrigerator from defrosting. I do think that this is sufficient to power the air furnace as well, but I haven’t tried. The residential internet outages also are pretty frequent, but we don’t notice these as much as power outages.
s_tec 4y ago
Normal wiring is terrible, though, since it only supports turning the equipment on & off. If you have a variable-speed fan and variable-speed pumps, it would be nice for the thermostat to throttle those based on the load, but it can't. If this company has a solution for variable-speed equipment, the best thing they can do is publish an open standard. Suppose the thermostat talks to the equipment over CAN bus, for instance, using a well-documented protocol. If they go out of business, anybody can hack together a compatible aftermarket thermostat. A lot of solar equipment is already going this way, with batteries talking to inverters over open CAN bus protocols. As one of the biggest energy loads, the HVAC equipment should get in the game too.
- SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
  What do you mean? There are variable speed furnaces that can be controlled via a normal thermostat and a 4-wire thermostat setup. Like you said, though, there's no open standard so that can be an issue, but it's standard wiring. https://www.pickhvac.com/thermostat/ https://www.pickhvac.com/thermostat/ (halfway down - "Communicating HVAC System") https://www.pickhvac.com/central-air-conditioner/extras/communicating-vs-non-communicating/ https://www.pickhvac.com/central-air-conditioner/extras/comm... (deeper dive into Communicating vs Non-Communicating HVAC systems)
  - s_tec 4y ago
    Well, that just makes it worse! OP strongly implies that there is no good variable-speed solution, but if the industry already has an assortment of products, what exactly are they even selling?!
    - aintgonnatakeit 4y ago
      I think you have to go thru a licensed HVAC installer to get an inverter system. These guys are DTC.
    - notJim 4y ago
      I think you're misreading the OP slightly. There's no cross-compatible system for variable equipment, which is why the OP says you can't use variable speed equipment with Nest. Nest is basically a really fancy switch only. To use variable speed equipment, you have to use your manufacturer's proprietary system. I'm not positive this is right, but I'm pretty sure it's backed up by https://www.pickhvac.com/central-air-conditioner/extras/communicating-vs-non-communicating/ https://www.pickhvac.com/central-air-conditioner/extras/comm... So basically, the premise of this product is that the proprietary system they design will be nicer than the proprietary systems HVAC manufacturer's design. That's probably true, but as an owner of a Carrier proprietary system, it's totally fine.
toss1 4y ago
Exactly. I will not even buy a $100 remote-internet-controlled thermostat that relies on a cloud service [0], and I've looked for both my home and my shop. I would not even consider buying the hardware that keeps my pipes from freezing if it depends on an internet connection. I'm happy if there are non-critical OPTIONS available that use the internet (e.g., as another poster mentioned, available optimizations based on real-time elec rates, etc.), but if there is any key function that'll fail without an internet connection, that's immediate disqualification, hard nope, not looking anymore. Period, full stop, even if it is "free" as in beer. OTOH, if OP can deliver a true stand-alone system and guarantees that it will never require a connection for any core function (as above, optional ok), then he'll have a large market. [0] any remote-via-internet control function should be able to directly access my IP, static or transient. Not only are non-static home IPs actually quite durable in my experience, there are a variety of easy solutions to keep track of the home IP. Yes, some of those are cloud services, but they are not tied to any hardware. Edit: That said, I'm ok with requiring wiring beyond the normal thermostat-HVAC wiring.
soheil 4y ago
It's hard pass for you because you know what a cloud is. Many don't and you don't know what many know.
thehappypm 4y ago
Counterpoint — I have an app for my Mitsubishi heat pump and use it all the time. It’s way more convenient and lets me hyper optimize my house. I actually don’t even use the physical ones at all anymore
- epanchin 4y ago
  Are you tied to the app?
  - thehappypm 4y ago
    No, my phone is wireless
    - vosper 4y ago
      Pretty sure they were asking if you could still access all the functionality currently provided by the app if it were to go away for some reason (who can see the future? It's not impossible Mitsubishi goes out of business or the app gets cancelled/pulled after some number of years)
    - shagie 4y ago
      If you lost your phone, would you still be able to manage the heat pump through other interfaces? If the app wasn't updated for ${latest phone OS}, would you be be unable to upgrade the phone OS?
  - SamBam 4y ago
    Mitsubishi heat pumps has a local thermostat that operates by remote, no cloud access needed, so if the app's servers go down it will still function.
  - aintgonnatakeit 4y ago
    Yes s/he is. Mitsubishi force you to use their Kumo Cloud controls, which are 1) expensive (a few kk) and 2) require cloud. Supposedly Mitsubishi is replacing Kumo with something else, but that just makes the problem worse.
RetpolineDrama 4y ago
>If it doesn't use the normal wiring people already have it's a hard pass from me. Why? a real smart thermostat can just use the existing wiring for power and then use IP over Wifi or Matter/Thread to communicate. Way better than the crappy wiring in most people's houses for thermostat control.
- dawnerd 4y ago
  Because HVAC in theory should outlive most other standards that have come and gone. Its totally fine to built on top of it, but using basic hard wiring to turn on/off is essential - even if just as a fallback. in 20 years the hvac should still be working, but will the wifi spec it shipped with? What about matter/thread?
  - Melatonic 4y ago
    Theres certainly a middleground between "must use existing old ass 2 wire setups" and "requires fancy always on cloud subscription" Surely we could come up with a device that might require an electrician to run a few extra wires (or maybe even larger wires or something) and still run perfectly fine offline, for as long as the hardware functions, with some type of integrated manual controller. And of course this device could also have an internet option and an app and wifi for all of the fancy stuff.
vladgur 4y ago
I agree. Use standardized wiring and let me control it from a $100 smart thermostat that i can replace if it becomes obsolete. If i want HomeAssistant integration, ill buy an HA-compatible thermostat. I dont want an expensive HVAC system to be in a walled garden of its own.
- coryrc 4y ago
  You lose about 30% efficiency using "standardized wiring" with an inverter heat pump instead of a communicating thermostat, because running a heat pump at 33% power continuously instead of 100% power 20 minutes of every hour results in a COP about 30% higher.
  - raisedbyninjas 4y ago
    Why do inverter heat pump need proprietary wiring? Everything I've seen indicates inverter and dual stage heat pumps can use standard wiring.
    - coryrc 4y ago
      They don't need it, they just don't get all their rated efficiency, which is much higher than single-speed systems. Single-speed systems commonly have cooling efficiencies around 10-14 SEER, the Gree Sapphire is 38 SEER. If you ran it at only full power, it'd probably only be 30 SEER.
paxys 4y ago
Disagree. There are a lot of advantages in being able to coordinate heating/cooling and general home electricity use based on stuff like weather forecasts, your electric company's rate tiers (including working around peak hours), when you are home or about to come home etc. Of course there should be a fallback mode where the system can work 100% offline, but being connected is definitely worth it.

aaomidi 4y ago

I will not buy this without a fully unlocked everything. This company is going to wait a few years and then charge you a shit ton for subscription to keep using your device. No thanks, and honestly whoever goes with this is going to regret it if they don't make changes to their software. Pick one: - Sell the device - Sell the software If you do both, you're going to alienate your customers and get regulatory wrath on you. Don't emulate Apple. They're going to get their ass handed to them in the near future. Take it even a step further and make the code AGPL. That way you know you're protected if a company decides to steal from you.

cmui 4y ago
I understand the concern around lock in. There is a technical hurdle to optimized thermostat <--> variable speed heat pump interop. You have to turn the temperature error between setpoint and actual temperature into a compressor speed command and also factor in behavior such as defrost, compressor cycling limits, etc. So you have to have a communicating thermostat to fully utilize the efficiency of these variable speed heat pump systems, not just a collection of analog on/off wires.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  That's totally fair and reasonable. I still will demand that it be able to function in a bang-bang mode using dry contacts, especially from a new entrant to the market, because there's a fair risk that the unit will be in my house longer than your company is in business.
  - cmui 4y ago
    This behavior is how current variable speed heat pumps operate with Ecobee and Nest. You leave efficiency on the table, but I get it provides some future proofing assurance for homeowners. Definitely something we can integrate into the board.
    - joelfried 4y ago
      > I get it provides some future proofing assurance I don't think you're getting it, and a lot of us around here want you to. If I were actively researching heat pumps (a thing most homeowners do before dropping 4-5 figures on ANY hardware), if you are locking me into your ecosystem -- or even have the appearance of locking me into your ecosystem -- your product is not getting onto any short list from me or likely anyone else around here. All of us -- every tech person who has ever gotten into home automation in a real way -- has thrown out some hardware rendered useless by a company. We've already seen this play out. You're an unknown and so are the riskiest kind of company to buy into. You need to get this -- deeply -- if you want to sell to this market. The pull quote above makes me want to run for the hills.

cmui 4y ago

I totally get this concern. Any good piece of critical home infrastructure should be able to operate without the cloud or an internet connection. Following this logic the thermostat + heat pump combination can operate fine without the cloud. You leave some optimized behavior on the table like demand response and weather response, but everything else will work (you'd have to manually enter your TOU rate plan to get that energy optimization).

dawnerd 4y ago
that's good to hear, I'd make sure it's mentioned in the FAQ at the bottom.
daredoes 4y ago
Would your company be willing to provide an open-source local-first websocket-based integration with https://www.home-assistant.io/ https://www.home-assistant.io/ or use the new Matter + Thread standard to provide it for everyone? If that's available, this would be my top choice as I'm actively shopping for all-electric heat pumps
- stevenpetryk 4y ago
  Or the company could at least leave it easy to hack :)
  - walterbell 4y ago
    Implement with a swappable compute module?
    - samstave 4y ago
      We need an entire industry of 'appliance based Rpi's to be able to act as modules in a standardly compute plug-in-form factor (just like blades) with a unit preloaded with a config and just swap out inter connects - ich that we have an appliance hub, the solar/whatever input pushes power and the distributor determines where to push or halt the power - with a selector that tells me the input costs, and output draws, such that it can have a system to auto switch to best performance. Honywell missed the mark on the importance of thermostats on the economy.

londons_explore 4y ago

I'd want to see a guarantee of "We will either keep running the servers forever, maintaining all current features, or we will opensource all the server side code, so you or someone else can keep running it". I'd want the code handed over to a third party to guarantee this (so the company can't walk back on their promise).

mrits 4y ago
Statically there is a great chance the people that would guarantee will be replaced upon failure or success in an early state startup.
mtrpcic 4y ago
If the server code is too complex, at least give me an OpenAPI spec (or equivalent) that the server must adhere to, so I can spin something simple up on a Raspberry PI to solve the problem myself.
pagutierrezn 4y ago
This went by the name: Source Code Scrow https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_code_escrow https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_code_escrow

soheil 4y ago

It'd be super helpful to mention the total cost will be close to $14k on the $100 pre-order page or at least somewhere near the top of the homepage. Also probably one of the implicit reasons this comment got upvoted.

cmui 4y ago
Yeah, not a bad idea to place pricing (or a link to it) on the preorder page, in addition to main page.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

masterj 4y ago

The software is certainly a concern, but I would also heavily emphasize the ability to get spare parts and service quickly. If your heat goes out in the middle of winter you don't want to wait weeks for spare parts, or be unable to get them at all if the company goes out of business.

cmui 4y ago
Yes, making spare parts and service work is super important. We'll likely set up regional distribution points for spare parts so anything critical can be easily sent next day.
- potatolicious 4y ago
  What about labor? I'm pretty handy but there are definitely parts of my HVAC system where I'd be unable/unwilling to DIY it. I currently have a local HVAC contractor on-retainer for same-day emergency appointments - and honestly I don't think I'd be willing to consider anything less since my current heat pump is my exclusive source of heating in this house. I'm in a temperate climate so there's little actual danger, but the idea of freezing/roasting my butt off for multiple days to wait for parts/labor is deeply unattractive.
  - cmui 4y ago
    Yeah, good question. The system is not meant to be DIY. The same contractor that does install also offers service. Logistics for replacement parts is important we will have quick, easy access for contractors.
    - bumby 4y ago
      Have you worked on creating a network of qualified contractors? In my region, there are lots of contractors who are little more than unreliable DIYers, especially in the mechanical space. My hesitancy is in the ongoing service. I’ve looked into geo-coupled heat pumps but the lack of qualified contractors locally deterred me.
- 4y ago

pshirshov 4y ago

Just buy an LG heat pump. They have cloud capabilities, though you have to install a separate module for that.

1970-01-01 4y ago

I have the same question, but on the hardware side. Since HVAC is critical infrastructure for a home, where will replacement parts be in a decade?

jtagen 4y ago

Wait, is this not going to have the usual "pair of wires you short to turn it on" feature of every furnace made so far? That's the ultimate control for when all the cloud features disappear and would be a deal-breaker for me.

ajross 4y ago

FWIW: the "cloud based" part is the flexible bit, it's the fixed equipment that you're stuck with for two decades. I see the problem as exactly the opposite: I could in principle switch from a Carrier to a Lennox to a Nest to an EcoBee in probably 10 minutes, but I can't, because all the equipment manufacturers are shipping their own garbage with closed protocols. So I had to fight with a contractor to get them to install our fancy new heat pump in "traditional dumb thermostat" mode, and then handed them the Nest box (which doesn't speak Carrier-ese) and put it in the contract that it had to work. It took them several hours extra to do things the "portable" way. They were absolutely not prepared even though the manufacturer claims this works just fine. So... I think there's absolutely a spot in the market for an Electric Air that can make this work cleanly. The existing HVAC players are really, really bad at this.