4 ms·

Tarot cards are a genuinely helpful method of probing one's psyche and I've used them to benefit in my daily life. I know many people who use them but none bel

Tarot cards are a genuinely helpful method of probing one's psyche and I've used them to benefit in my daily life. I know many people who use them but none believe they have a magical power. They're projectives, like a Rorsach test. The card will give you something abstract and you fill in the blanks. What your mind fills in can be quite elucidating. Your feeling as well, in terms of gladness or disappointment at what card you pull, can also give you insight into what issues you'd rather think about. The demonization of tarot in my mind mostly stems from internalised misogyny and a desire on the societal level to paint anything which appeals mostly to women as "kooky," "overly emotional,". "illogical" and "unscientific" (projectives are well studied and used in clinical settings).

kybernetyk 4y ago
>The demonization of tarot in my mind mostly stems from internalised misogyny and a desire on the societal level to paint anything which appeals mostly to women Yes, absolutely. The patriarchy likes to dunk on magic future telling cards.
- zoklet-enjoyer 4y ago
  That part made me laugh
- AlecSchueler 4y ago
  Yes, it does, thanks for proving my point. You just ignored everything I said about their use as projective and painted them again as magical and kooky without any counter argument.
  - Dylan16807 4y ago
    Them being rude doesn't prove your point. But I don't think power structures have most of the blame for the fact that every single advocate of tarot reading I've seen until today said the cards were magical.
- eternalban 4y ago
  Carl Jung addressed the root issue -- pyschological taboos -- in his introduction to the Wilhelm translation of I Ching. " The I Ching insists upon self-knowledge throughout. The method by which this is to be achieved is open to every kind of misuse, and is therefore not for the frivolous-minded and immature; nor is it for intellectualists and rationalists. It is appropriate only for thoughtful and reflective people who like to think about what they do and what happens to them -- a predilection not to be confused with the morbid brooding of the hypochondriac. As I have indicated above, I have no answer to the multitude of problems that arise when we seek to harmonize the oracle of the I Ching with our accepted scientific canons. But needless to say, nothing "occult" is to be inferred. My position in these matters is pragmatic, and the great disciplines that have taught me the practical usefulness of this viewpoint are psychotherapy and medical psychology. Probably in no other field do we have to reckon with so many unknown quantities, and nowhere else do we become more accustomed to adopting methods that work even though for a long time we may not know why they work. Unexpected cures may arise from questionable therapies and unexpected failures from allegedly reliable methods. In the exploration of the unconscious we come upon very strange things, from which a rationalist turns away with horror, claiming afterward that he did not see anything. The irrational fullness of life has taught me never to discard anything, even when it goes against all our theories (so short-lived at best) or otherwise admits of no immediate explanation. It is of course disquieting, and one is not certain whether the compass is pointing true or not; but security, certitude, and peace do not lead to discoveries. It is the same with this Chinese mode of divination. Clearly the method aims at self-knowledge, though at all times it has also been put to superstitious use." https://www.iging.com/intro/foreword.htm https://www.iging.com/intro/foreword.htm By his "pragmatism", I understand something along the philosophical pragmatism of Wittgenstein and his "usage is meaning" line of thought. Jung is saying it is not clear how or why this stuff works, but subjectively a "thoughtful" and "reflective" person seems to discern meaning and gain (personal) insights through the process. In other words, a psychological phenomena. He also touches on the point of your well aimed remark in noting "misuse". I personally think Jung is understating the dangers involved. (For relative reference, think of the not-so-hot topic of "dangers of meditation" to understand the underlying common pschological issue of probing your culturally protected taboo zones that keep you "normal"/"stable"). The fact of the matter is that occult "divination" tools are dangerous, more dangerous than even "scripture". They have been consistently proven to be culturally corrosive as they undermine rational thought and provide shelter for charlatans, undermine decision faculties of the diviner, and undermine the necessary coherence between our inner life and our outer reality. And the symbolism involved require deep study to avoid misunderstandings. People also seriously discount the inevitable impact of 'divination' on the mind of the inquirer, the careless and ignorant dabbler in occult tools. So promoting them as if they are harmless little nothings is very irresponsible. One has to be very thoughtful and reflective (to say nothing of the erudition required) to not misuse such tools. Very few people meet the required standard. I personally think it has been an error to promote esoterica to the masses. Its like giving guns and bullets to children.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
benj111 4y ago
>desire on the societal level to paint anything which appeals mostly to women as "kooky," "overly emotional,". "illogical" and "unscientific" Are you saying tarot cards are logical and scientific? Fwiw, I associate them more with gypsies than women, so I guess I'm racist rather than sexist?
- AlecSchueler 4y ago
  Yes, I am. Here's a study about their use as projectives: https://www.academia.edu/442955/Tarot_As_a_Projective_Technique https://www.academia.edu/442955/Tarot_As_a_Projective_Techni... You can find a tonne of literature on the clinical use of projective. The famous rorsach test is based on the same psychological mechanism. In terms of logic they do actually have an attempt at systematising both a range of common emotions and a number of archetypal points along life's journey. I know that's maybe not what you meant by logic, but a system that differentiates its output based on input like "Cups, 6", "Coins, 2" etc. works for my definition of logic. Lastly, and I know you asked in jest, but If your association between the cards and a specific ethnic group is what leads to you judging them as unscientific without first checking then there probably is a level of racism at play. That's nothing to be ashamed of, as everyone carries internalised racism (thanks society). As long as you can recognise it when it comes up in yourself like this and you do the work to combat it then you have nothing to worry about.
  - benj111 4y ago
    The difference between a rorsach test and a tarot reading is that rorsach tests aren't bound up with the idea that they can tell you the future. How can you ethically give a tarot reading knowing that X% will understand it as a prediction of their future? >If your association between the cards and a specific ethnic group is what leads to you judging them as unscientific Why don't you apply the same nuance when deciding whether sexism is at play?
    - AlecSchueler 4y ago
      You're bringing future telling into it which is something I've never mentioned or seen mentioned in the circles of the people who use them. They're almost always used as tools for self reflection, which is supported by the science I linked to. I've only seen fortune telling done on an entertainment basis or on television shows. > Why don't you apply the same nuance when deciding whether sexism is at play? Can you tell me how I could do this?
ucantbeserious 4y ago
oh lord, come on. the "demonization" of tarot in modern society has nothing to do with bigotry and everything to do with the fact that its widely understood, right or wrongly as you claim, to be a tool for fortune telling... which is absolutely a crackpot thing just like flat earth and other garbage. im glad you have found a use for it that helps you, thats a good thing, but your understanding of it as a tool in the way you describe it is not how its generally perceived, and that misconception has nothing to do with internalized misogyny.
cecilpl2 4y ago
Douglas Adams on horoscopes: > In astrology the rules happen to be about stars and planets, but they could be about ducks and drakes for all the difference it would make. It's just a way of thinking about a problem which lets the shape of that problem begin to emerge. The more rules, the tinier the rules, the more arbitrary they are, the better. It's like throwing a handful of fine graphite dust on a piece of paper to see where the hidden indentations are. It lets you see the words that were written on the piece of paper above it that's now been taken away and hidden. The graphite's not important. It's just the means of revealing their indentations. So you see, astrology's nothing to do with astronomy. It's just to do with people thinking about people.
- AlecSchueler 4y ago
  Thank you, this is a very poetic way of describing my meaning.
JenrHywy 4y ago
I'm not so sure about the patriarchy part, but it's certainly wrapped up in the move towards narrowly scientific thinking. Or as Nietzsche would put it, we're too Apollonian and not enough Dionysian. FWIW I'm also fond of the Tarot, and the I Ching, and find both surprisingly insightful and useful (me of 10 years ago would not believe that I just wrote that).
roelschroeven 4y ago
You keep mentioning Rorsach tests as some kind of gold standard. Rorsach tests are purely based on pseudo-science, though. There is zero empiric / scientific evidence that they do anything useful. So yeah, tarot cards are probably on about the same level as that.

kybernetyk 4y ago

>The demonization of tarot in my mind mostly stems from internalised misogyny and a desire on the societal level to paint anything which appeals mostly to women Yes, absolutely. The patriarchy likes to dunk on magic future telling cards.

zoklet-enjoyer 4y ago
That part made me laugh
AlecSchueler 4y ago
Yes, it does, thanks for proving my point. You just ignored everything I said about their use as projective and painted them again as magical and kooky without any counter argument.
- Dylan16807 4y ago
  Them being rude doesn't prove your point. But I don't think power structures have most of the blame for the fact that every single advocate of tarot reading I've seen until today said the cards were magical.
eternalban 4y ago
Carl Jung addressed the root issue -- pyschological taboos -- in his introduction to the Wilhelm translation of I Ching. " The I Ching insists upon self-knowledge throughout. The method by which this is to be achieved is open to every kind of misuse, and is therefore not for the frivolous-minded and immature; nor is it for intellectualists and rationalists. It is appropriate only for thoughtful and reflective people who like to think about what they do and what happens to them -- a predilection not to be confused with the morbid brooding of the hypochondriac. As I have indicated above, I have no answer to the multitude of problems that arise when we seek to harmonize the oracle of the I Ching with our accepted scientific canons. But needless to say, nothing "occult" is to be inferred. My position in these matters is pragmatic, and the great disciplines that have taught me the practical usefulness of this viewpoint are psychotherapy and medical psychology. Probably in no other field do we have to reckon with so many unknown quantities, and nowhere else do we become more accustomed to adopting methods that work even though for a long time we may not know why they work. Unexpected cures may arise from questionable therapies and unexpected failures from allegedly reliable methods. In the exploration of the unconscious we come upon very strange things, from which a rationalist turns away with horror, claiming afterward that he did not see anything. The irrational fullness of life has taught me never to discard anything, even when it goes against all our theories (so short-lived at best) or otherwise admits of no immediate explanation. It is of course disquieting, and one is not certain whether the compass is pointing true or not; but security, certitude, and peace do not lead to discoveries. It is the same with this Chinese mode of divination. Clearly the method aims at self-knowledge, though at all times it has also been put to superstitious use." https://www.iging.com/intro/foreword.htm https://www.iging.com/intro/foreword.htm By his "pragmatism", I understand something along the philosophical pragmatism of Wittgenstein and his "usage is meaning" line of thought. Jung is saying it is not clear how or why this stuff works, but subjectively a "thoughtful" and "reflective" person seems to discern meaning and gain (personal) insights through the process. In other words, a psychological phenomena. He also touches on the point of your well aimed remark in noting "misuse". I personally think Jung is understating the dangers involved. (For relative reference, think of the not-so-hot topic of "dangers of meditation" to understand the underlying common pschological issue of probing your culturally protected taboo zones that keep you "normal"/"stable"). The fact of the matter is that occult "divination" tools are dangerous, more dangerous than even "scripture". They have been consistently proven to be culturally corrosive as they undermine rational thought and provide shelter for charlatans, undermine decision faculties of the diviner, and undermine the necessary coherence between our inner life and our outer reality. And the symbolism involved require deep study to avoid misunderstandings. People also seriously discount the inevitable impact of 'divination' on the mind of the inquirer, the careless and ignorant dabbler in occult tools. So promoting them as if they are harmless little nothings is very irresponsible. One has to be very thoughtful and reflective (to say nothing of the erudition required) to not misuse such tools. Very few people meet the required standard. I personally think it has been an error to promote esoterica to the masses. Its like giving guns and bullets to children.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

benj111 4y ago

>desire on the societal level to paint anything which appeals mostly to women as "kooky," "overly emotional,". "illogical" and "unscientific" Are you saying tarot cards are logical and scientific? Fwiw, I associate them more with gypsies than women, so I guess I'm racist rather than sexist?

AlecSchueler 4y ago
Yes, I am. Here's a study about their use as projectives: https://www.academia.edu/442955/Tarot_As_a_Projective_Technique https://www.academia.edu/442955/Tarot_As_a_Projective_Techni... You can find a tonne of literature on the clinical use of projective. The famous rorsach test is based on the same psychological mechanism. In terms of logic they do actually have an attempt at systematising both a range of common emotions and a number of archetypal points along life's journey. I know that's maybe not what you meant by logic, but a system that differentiates its output based on input like "Cups, 6", "Coins, 2" etc. works for my definition of logic. Lastly, and I know you asked in jest, but If your association between the cards and a specific ethnic group is what leads to you judging them as unscientific without first checking then there probably is a level of racism at play. That's nothing to be ashamed of, as everyone carries internalised racism (thanks society). As long as you can recognise it when it comes up in yourself like this and you do the work to combat it then you have nothing to worry about.
- benj111 4y ago
  The difference between a rorsach test and a tarot reading is that rorsach tests aren't bound up with the idea that they can tell you the future. How can you ethically give a tarot reading knowing that X% will understand it as a prediction of their future? >If your association between the cards and a specific ethnic group is what leads to you judging them as unscientific Why don't you apply the same nuance when deciding whether sexism is at play?
  - AlecSchueler 4y ago
    You're bringing future telling into it which is something I've never mentioned or seen mentioned in the circles of the people who use them. They're almost always used as tools for self reflection, which is supported by the science I linked to. I've only seen fortune telling done on an entertainment basis or on television shows. > Why don't you apply the same nuance when deciding whether sexism is at play? Can you tell me how I could do this?

ucantbeserious 4y ago

oh lord, come on. the "demonization" of tarot in modern society has nothing to do with bigotry and everything to do with the fact that its widely understood, right or wrongly as you claim, to be a tool for fortune telling... which is absolutely a crackpot thing just like flat earth and other garbage. im glad you have found a use for it that helps you, thats a good thing, but your understanding of it as a tool in the way you describe it is not how its generally perceived, and that misconception has nothing to do with internalized misogyny.

cecilpl2 4y ago

Douglas Adams on horoscopes: > In astrology the rules happen to be about stars and planets, but they could be about ducks and drakes for all the difference it would make. It's just a way of thinking about a problem which lets the shape of that problem begin to emerge. The more rules, the tinier the rules, the more arbitrary they are, the better. It's like throwing a handful of fine graphite dust on a piece of paper to see where the hidden indentations are. It lets you see the words that were written on the piece of paper above it that's now been taken away and hidden. The graphite's not important. It's just the means of revealing their indentations. So you see, astrology's nothing to do with astronomy. It's just to do with people thinking about people.

AlecSchueler 4y ago
Thank you, this is a very poetic way of describing my meaning.

JenrHywy 4y ago

I'm not so sure about the patriarchy part, but it's certainly wrapped up in the move towards narrowly scientific thinking. Or as Nietzsche would put it, we're too Apollonian and not enough Dionysian. FWIW I'm also fond of the Tarot, and the I Ching, and find both surprisingly insightful and useful (me of 10 years ago would not believe that I just wrote that).

roelschroeven 4y ago

You keep mentioning Rorsach tests as some kind of gold standard. Rorsach tests are purely based on pseudo-science, though. There is zero empiric / scientific evidence that they do anything useful. So yeah, tarot cards are probably on about the same level as that.