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Over 100 kids illegally employed in hazardous jobs, contractor pays $1.5M fine
- Avenger42 4y ago> The amount is the maximum civil money penalty allowed by federal law. Sounds like an update to federal law is in order, at the very least tying that number to inflation (or perhaps to corporate profits?).
- SauciestGNU 4y agoOr maybe each offense should be redefined as each shift worked, or per hour worked. $15k per illegal shift is a lot more than $15k total.
- dsfyu404ed 4y agoI used to do this sort of overnight cleaning but in medical. Based on my experience I would be very surprised if the overwhelming majority of these kids weren't a) immigrants and b) working the same shift least one of their parents. I wouldn't say it was typical to have teenagers around but when you saw one it almost always turned out that they carpool with a parent even if they didn't necessarily work in proximity to each other.
- Ancapistani 4y ago> I wouldn't say it was typical to have teenagers around but when you saw one it almost always turned out that they carpool with a parent even if they didn't necessarily work in proximity to each other. Yep. I'm not defending this at all, but there is context that may not be clear if you're not familiar with these communities. At least with the teen working, the parent knows where they are and the family is gaining income. The alternative is likely the teen staying home unsupervised, which is neither providing opportunity for the child nor income for the family.
- foogazi 4y agoVery similar to farm work- kids get up early and milk the cows
- lakomen 4y agoImagine exploiting children for labor and robbing them of their childhood. And then only paying a 1.5m fine. Who gets that money btw? I'm 99% sure - not the children.
- shmde 4y agoRemember folks fines are just written off as business expense. Unless people responsible are jailed long time this will just continue. What happens then ? Pay the fine and repeat cycle.
- baerrie 4y agoMan, I resent that corporations have similar rights as people but if they were actually treated as people, they wouldn’t just be fined, they would be thrown in corporate jail where all operations cease. I wonder how quickly corporate responsibility would improve if that were the case?
- samstave 4y agoThat fine should directly be paid out to the kids in the form of a 529A college fund, or something similar. EDIT ; NEVER invest in a 529 college plan. They are money grabbing frauds. I put $40,000 into a 529a plan in 2004. In 2022 it was worth $89,000 -- They couldnt even provide a good return over 20 years. They then berated me for complaining that they "only" doubled my money in !20 years. The problem is that the banks that this was desposited in ~2004 -- they failed and were sold several times in the 2008-2012 banking grifting. And they couldnt give me ANY data on the tranfer of accounts or companies when they befuddled the accounts together. They literally treated me as if I was berating THEM. HN was a laughter of shitty advice. So take mine with a ton of salt, because thats what you shall be tasting, marinated in rage, when you discover you invested in an institution that literally steals your money and marks it.
- laweijfmvo 4y ago$1.5M EACH
- lallysingh 4y agoEach? It looks like total. $15k each, not much of a fine
- ixwt 4y agoCost of doing business now a days. Fines should certainly start with all profits from the infringing activity, and then add the fine on top. There should be no gains whatsoever from these kinds of activities. Companies keep getting away with these kinds of heinous activities because there is still gains in doing it.
- ericmcer 4y agoThe law doesn't seem to have much of a bite. I always assume something like illegally hiring minors or exploiting workers will be the end your business. Then it turns out to be a pretty manageable fine. Same thing with selling alcohol to a minor, I figured getting caught doing that would mean humongous fines and revocation of your liquor license, but it is a $250 fine and 24 hours of community service.
- organsnyder 4y agoDid the company make more than $1.5M in additional revenue due to employing those 100+ kids (plus the others that are likely to have never been identified)?
- alistairSH 4y agoGiven the fine is a fixed amount per violation, it's not unreasonable to assume the company's management did the math and found child labor + fine is more profitable than adult labor.
- sokoloff 4y agoPresumably variable gross profit is the measure to refer to/compare against, rather than revenue.
- mischanix 4y agoSo if I rob a bank for $2MM, but spend $1.95MM on contractors to do the job, I should only be fined $50k?
- n42 4y agono. but when you are calculating if the job is worth the risk, you would look at the $50k vs the jail time.
- sokoloff 4y agoIf you want to understand whether there are systemic forces at play which serve to reinforce an undesirable behavior, you should compare the fine to the expected profit not to the expected revenue.
- aaomidi 4y agoThe fines for doing this should not depend on company revenue or profit. It should be that every single exec in charge of that company is never allowed to have any decision making power again in any industry. After a substantial jail time. Every exec involved here should be personally liable too, and be forced to have their assets sold to cover a huge pay out to these kids. These kids should never have to work again a day in their lives. And if the assets aren't enough, then we should have tax payer money go and make things right for these kids.
- Invictus0 4y ago> Under the Fair Labor Standards Act, the department assessed PSSI $15,138 for each minor-aged employee who was employed in violation of the law. The amount is the maximum civil money penalty allowed by federal law.
- ClumsyPilot 4y agoSo if they employ 10k kids they get the y can turn a profit despite the fine?
- anonymouskimmer 4y agoThey don't keep getting to employ these kids after being caught and made to pay the fine. So the risk is that they get fined before getting $15k worth of after-wage labor from the kids, and of course now they have to backfill the jobs posthaste or they violate their contract (with any potential fees from that).
- mulmen 4y agoI got my first job at 15. Is that no longer legal? Is the issue here the specific conditions?
- rootusrootus 4y agoStill happens. It's easier now than it was when I was younger. At 14 I had to get a work permit. Now I would not, the employer just has to report stats to the state. Our restrictions are also graduated. There's even a sub-14 category, though it's pretty limited. Then there is 14-15, which has the usual restrictions (no hazardous jobs, limited hours per day, no conflicts with school schedule). And then 16-17, which has no limits on hours per day or school scheduling conflicts.
- legitster 4y agoOnly agriculture or specific types of jobs.
- space_ghost 4y agoYes, it's the specific (hazardous) conditions involved. Teenagers can and are legally employed, but there's laws that control the allowed nature and scheduling of that employment. Young teens cleaning dangerous meat-processing equipment during nightshifts is several kinds of nope.
- retrac 4y agoYes, specific conditions. For example, here in Ontario, Canada you can employ children as young as 14 but their hours cannot conflict with school hours (including no overnight schedules). And certain jobs are simply 18+, such as working in factories. Abattoirs are one of the more dangerous and stressful (physically and mentally) jobs out there, and would likely fall in that category of hazardous work unsuited to children.
- stonemetal12 4y ago14 is generally the minimum. But there are restrictions, can't work night shifts during school, can't work in hazardous conditions, etc.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- hd95489 4y agoI mean if you can get away with it for over a year then you probably came out ahead
- MattGaiser 4y agoWhere did they get the kids? Is this trafficking? Terrible parents?
- alistairSH 4y agoMore likely desperate parents. Sounds like these are probably the children of undocumented immigrants, who likely also work at the plant.
- foogazi 4y agoKids got to eat, pay rent too I’ve read undocumented migrant children sometimes are placed in foster care BUT their families back home need the money, so the kids work to send money home, help the foster family or pay off the smuggling price Tough to just be a kid in the US with other siblings in need back home $10 an hour is a fortune
- dmitryminkovsky 4y ago> had employed at least 31 children, from 13 to 17 years of age, in hazardous occupations to clean dangerous powered equipment during overnight shifts
- steponlego 4y ago[flagged]
- dom96 4y agoShouldn't someone go to prison for this?
- oramit 4y ago"Under the Fair Labor Standards Act, the department assessed PSSI $15,138 for each minor-aged employee who was employed in violation of the law. The amount is the maximum civil money penalty allowed by federal law." Wow, I knew that labor laws in the US were toothless but to have it spelled out like this is so depressing. A max penalty of ~15k per violation, just bravo team, bravo.
- legitster 4y ago??? - $15k per violation is still quite a bit of money. This is an order of magnitude more expensive than the pennies they saved by looking the other way. The point of the fines is not to force the company into insolvency - if anything, the DOL would rather incentivize companies into compliance with labor laws than squash them and spread bad practices into harder-to-monitor industries.
- ethanbond 4y agoIt seems hard to believe that employing an actual child would save you less than $1.5k over, say, 6 or 12 months.
- noahtallen 4y ago$15k/yr is about $7.5/hr based on a 40-hr work week for 50 weeks. If each child on average only worked 15-hr weeks for two years, that's $10/hr. So it definitely doesn't seem like the fee would be "order of magnitude" more expensive than hiring adults. Assuming the kids got paid $7.25/hr... which seems high given that this is an already-illegal penny-pinching operation... that could easily be $10 cheaper than typical adult factory wages. (I know people working for around $18/hr in factories in Ohio a handful of years ago.) Obviously the exact math is unknown, but I don't think your claim is fair at all. It seems very likely and even probable that the company still ultimately saved money compared to hiring adults at a competitive wage.
- legitster 4y agoAt the time of the suit they only found 31 child workers. After an audit going a few years back they found 103 total. No word on how how many hours worked but it's fair to say the average stint was for less than a few months. They got off pretty light, but having seen how tight payroll can be in food manufacturing, I don't think anyone at the company is patting themselves on the back for paying a $1.5 million fine for a couple of lousy part time cleaners.
- DeathArrow 4y agoIs it legal to work in the USA if you are 13 years old?
- stonemetal12 4y agoIn non farm jobs, No.
- sokoloff 4y agoI was cutting grass for neighbors and a small business lot in the neighborhood at age 13 (and maybe a few weeks before my 13th birthday). I don't know if it was legal or not, but it seemed/seems appropriate to me.
- steego 4y agoFunny you say that: When I was 13, my first real job was at a trap shooting club and it was considered “farm work”. For less than minimum wage, I sat in a tiny concrete building down range from 5 shooters and reloaded a mechanical arm with another clay pigeon every time the other kid (sitting behind the shooters) pressed the button. You never knew when the mechanical arm would go off and sometimes the kid outside would accidentally hit it twice so it would go off when you were reloading it, basically grazing your fingertips. You had to keep your legs straight out for hours because lifting your knees up would mean the mechanical arm would get it. Every once in a while, you’d hear the shot hit the trap house, which only served to remind you to wave your little red flag before you exited the house. This was especially true during the beef and beer shoots.
- kelseyfrog 4y agoThe children yearn for the mines.
- anonymouskimmer 4y agoSure it is. The Federal labor laws only apply to businesses engaged in interstate commerce (individual state laws apply locally). But even then exemptions are listed on page 5 of this non-copypastable PDF: https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/WHD/legacy/files/childlabor101.pdf https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/WHD/legacy/files/chil... https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/youthrules/young-workers https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/youthrules/young-workers If you are under the age of 14, you are only allowed to do the following jobs: - Deliver newspapers to customers - Babysit on a casual basis - Work as an actor or performer in movies, TV, radio, or theater - Work as a homeworker gathering evergreens and making evergreen wreaths; and - Work for a business owned entirely by your parents as long as you are not employed in mining, manufacturing, or any of the 17 hazardous occupations.
- nostromo 4y agoThere are millions of undocumented workers in the US using fake identities to get jobs. Both major parties support this system. Some Republican interests enjoy the access to dirt-cheap labor. Some Democratic interests want immigrants to be able to find jobs despite it being illegal to employ them. So we end up with a system where employers have no easy way to verify that an employee is who they say they are and has a legal right to work any specific job. This is such an easy problem to solve, but entrenched interests would rather we all play dumb and occasionally slap a business on the wrist when they get too far out of bounds. I’d be curious where these kids end up after this. My guess is they will not end up in schools but will rather end up doing undocumented farm work.
- legitster 4y ago> This is such an easy problem to solve Is it though? I'm absolutely an advocate for eliminating all visa/green card restrictions, but I would by no means say it's an easy problem to solve. There are a lot of downstream implications for unions, housing markets, education, Medicaid, etc. I think these are worthy problems to get to, but I absolutely understand why politicians would rather play dumb.
- throw93 4y ago> There are millions of undocumented workers in the US using fake identities to get jobs. How is this related to the story? The story is about companies using children as workers in hazardous job. It’s illegal regardless of their documentation status. Iowa has proposed bill to to legalize exactly this. This is happening because companies don’t want to pay fair wage.
- roenxi 4y agoPresumably the children in question lied about their age when they signed up. The most likely scenario is the meat plant offered them the best wage-earning opportunity in the area. If there aren't systems to verify who workers really are then the meat plant might not have had an easy way to find out. Seems plausible as theories go although obviously I only read this press release and moved on. I mean; if the likely outcome was just losing their job these kids would probably have lied to the investigators too. The evidence here is they wanted to work since this isn't a slavery situation. 100 is such a small number in the grand scheme of things. There are much more than 100 children illegally employed in the US. I'd guarantee it. A lot of families need money.
- throw93 4y agoMeanwhile Iowa proposes bill to do exactly this. https://www.weareiowa.com/amp/article/money/business/sf-167-worker-shortage-youth-employment-teens-labor-jobs/524-07b4ed86-39b9-4b8d-a3d8-246644a6f054 https://www.weareiowa.com/amp/article/money/business/sf-167-...
- Tangurena2 4y agoArkansas as well. > Teens under age 16 no longer need a work permit through the Arkansas Department of Labor and Licensing before they can start a job. > Gov. Sarah Huckabee Sanders signed HB1410, dubbed the "Youth Hiring Act of 2023," into law last week. https://www.axios.com/local/nw-arkansas/2023/03/13/arkansas-roll-back-child-labor-protections https://www.axios.com/local/nw-arkansas/2023/03/13/arkansas-...
- ryandrake 4y agoThese people would rather bring back child labor and The Jungle than offer a wage for work that is even barely high enough for an adult to accept.
- wnevets 4y agoOn a related note Arkansas just rollback regulations to employ kids. If the past month is any indication of what happens when you rollback regulations there is no way this will end poorly for some of the kids.
- twodave 4y agoI'd never let any of my kids work in a meat processing facility. The danger element alone with combined with unpredictable children sounds like The Jungle just waiting to happen again. Still 100 kids out of all the employees seems like a really small fraction, to the point where I wonder if these kids were all related to employees. I've got little sympathy for the company here, but seeing how scarce certain items are at the grocery store, how prices have risen and how difficult it is to secure labor for those jobs I can understand why they would have broken the rules even knowing they'd pay for it eventually, just to keep the wheels moving.
- Ancapistani 4y ago> I'd never let any of my kids work in a meat processing facility. I did, both as a child and as an adult. It wasn't driven by financial need, though, which is obviously a huge difference. In my case it was because I wanted to contribute to my uncle's small business. I did whatever was needed at the "meat shop" during summer vacation when I was a young teen. Sometimes that was working the front desk and selling summer sausage, sometimes it was slaughtering hogs, and sometimes it was cleaning the slaughter room at the end of the day. In return, I stayed at my family's farm during the summer. I had access to all their land and knowledge, was provided room and board, and got a small wage. I was also able to hunt that land in the fall and invite friends to come stay there during hunting season to hunt with me. > Still 100 kids out of all the employees seems like a really small fraction These were contractors, weren't they? It could have been all of their employees > to the point where I wonder if these kids were all related to employees Based on my knowledge of that community, I'd say that's extremely likely. It was probably a mix of kids working in lieu of paying for child care when not in school and kids that weren't in school for whatever reasons (including lacking documentation to get in, not knowing enough English yet, and some dropping out early due to social or behavioral issues). Most or all of their parents likely worked in the same plant.
- twodave 4y agoYeah, I can 100% understand doing that as part of a family business; when your employer is your family it's pretty much assumed they have your best interest at heart (though I realize that isn't always true), and even if you're being paid very little there's a good chance you'll benefit from helping your family prosper.
- mattanimation 4y agothis is why food is cheap people. I used to drive corn and pea combines in high school, and in the farming community it's not uncommon to have kids driving tractors as well (granted this is usually a family run farm). It's likely that the people working in the factories there knew the kids or families and made an exception to allow them to start early (still technically illegal I know). it's not child slave labor, its kids trying to make money.
- retrac 4y agoHelping out on the family farm is in its own category, in my opinion. For one thing, the parents are probably actually supervising. So they are probably taking some measures to ensure the child is not dismembered. Most parents do have a strong interest in making sure their children aren't wounded or killed. It becomes a different question when we're talking dozens of kids working in a corporate meat processing plant. > this is why food is cheap people True. Though as an outsider looking in, it looks disturbing like a class, or even a caste system. Children, illegal immigrants, and workers with little to no bargaining power -- confined mostly to specific rural regions of the country -- do backbreaking labour, often in illegal and unsafe conditions, in order to provide cheap food for the ruling middle class and elites. Said middle class and elites would rather perpetuate these conditions than face even a few % increase on the price of their food, which they'd be able to afford. I know you didn't mean that, of course. This is just me taking general aim. It's my first reaction to "this is why American food is so cheap" -- well should it be? Or are Americans just externalizing the costs of that cheap food on to others?
- diordiderot 4y ago> Helping out on the family farm is in its own category, in my opinion. Also in the DOL's opinion
- Ancapistani 4y ago> It becomes a different question when we're talking dozens of kids working in a corporate meat processing plant. Is it? Would you feel differently if the kids' parents were working in the same plant, were nearby, and were comfortable with the situation? To be clear - I don't know for certain that's the case here, but I do have enough knowledge of these plants to know that it's not at all unlikely that that is the case.
- HollywoodZro 4y agoI saw a POV documentary on PBS about kids from undocumented families and some of them are US citizens since the kids were born here. But there were many instances where these kids work nights, then try to go to school during the day. It's the life they have to live to try and help support their family. It's a terrible situation, but almost always better than what they faced in their home country.
- kneebonian 4y agoA couple of highlights: > KIELER, WI – One of the nation’s largest food safety sanitation services providers has paid $1.5 million in civil money penalties after the U.S. Department of Labor’s Wage and Hour Division found the company employed at least 102 children – from 13 to 17 years of age – in hazardous occupations and had them working overnight shifts at 13 meat processing facilities in eight states. > Under the Fair Labor Standards Act, the department assessed PSSI $15,138 for each minor-aged employee who was employed in violation of the law. The amount is the maximum civil money penalty allowed by federal law. Child labor is one issue to deal with but I am getting pissed off at the non-enforcement/selective enforcement of laws we are seeing in society, it doesn't matter what laws we have if they aren't enforced and routinely ignored.