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> it’s pure fiction that cloud does not require experts to run it. You're not wrong, however, in cloud I can just use a single "cloud engineer", as opposed to

by mbesto 4y ago

> it’s pure fiction that cloud does not require experts to run it. You're not wrong, however, in cloud I can just use a single "cloud engineer", as opposed to having to find a: - Hardware specialist (someone who knows how to physically install servers, NAS, SAN, etc.) - Network specialist (someone who knows how to physically install network cards, switches, etc. + config, setup, etc.) - Data center environment specialist (usually can come with the data center, but they still need to be vetted) - Security specialist Oh and btw there are 100+ vendors who supply all of this. So not only do I need to find a, for example, a network specialist, I need to find someone who uses Nagios because my infra lead made that decision.

jjav 4y ago
> Hardware specialist, Network specialist, Data center environment specialist If we're talking startups here, still working on product market fit with small active user counts.. this is massive overkill. Every startup I've been part of (except one) could've very easily been hosted from a single server under someone's desk (sure, get two for redundancy). The cost would be approximately nothing instead of a 5 figure AWS monthly bill. This isn't resume-building though, so it doesn't happen. (Amusingly, the one startup I was part of that grew way too big for my "server under the desk" hosting model, they went to a colocated datacenter.) > Security specialist Yes you always need this if you're going to have anything connected on the internet.
Melatonic 4y ago
Generally you just need two people (and then probably should have 2 more for redudancy) which would be the System Engineer and the Network Engineer. Between those two they should abe able to do the datacenter work themselves (with physical assistance for racking / moving heavy equipment which is rare). Some of the superstar infrastructure architects I have met could do both jobs easily themselves (although that is rare). Security you should probably have no matter where your shit is hosted......
antisthenes 4y ago
Umm...no. Just no. > - Security specialist You need them in both environments if you're serious about security. Unless you somehow believe that being in the "cloud" grants you some kind of security by default? > - Hardware specialist (someone who knows how to physically install servers, NAS, SAN, etc.) You can contract this out to the datacenter itself. This is typically a one-time expense when installing infrastructure that will then last the useful lifetime of the hardware (e.g. 5-7 years) > - Data center environment specialist (usually can come with the data center, but they still need to be vetted) What does this even mean? > - Network specialist (someone who knows how to physically install network cards, switches, etc. + config, setup, etc.) Yes, true, a truly robust network setup that is colocated in multiple data-centers is probably the most difficult thing out of the entire setup. > Oh and btw there are 100+ vendors who supply all of this. You mean Dell? Or HP? > So not only do I need to find a, for example, a network specialist, I need to find someone who uses Nagios because my infra lead made that decision. You just need a linux admin on a contract. If they are worth their salt, they don't even have to be full-time.
- mbesto 4y ago
  > You need them in both environments if you're serious about security. Unless you somehow believe that being in the "cloud" grants you some kind of security by default? I don't disagree that you need a security focused person in cloud. However, the scope of security is drastically different in cloud vs data center (and varies depending on what your data center setup is). > What does this even mean? What happens if your server is overheating? As I said, this is usually provided by data center itself, however you have to still have to vet the vendor. AWS/GCP/Azure all have reputations about environmental factors that are rarely questioned. > You mean Dell? Or HP? Yes, AND Nagios, Solarwinds, Cisco, IBM, VMWare, etc. etc. and every one of their subsidiaries that have esoteric needs. > You just need a linux admin on a contract. Ummm...no. Just no. Have you ever had to create multiple subnets, DMZs, SD-WAN setups, plus VPN access, etc. etc. with multiple locations, all with security in mind, and full redundancy across three data centers? "just a linux admin" isn't the job description for that.
  - antisthenes 4y ago
    > What happens if your server is overheating? As I said, this is usually provided by data center itself, however you have to still have to vet the vendor. It's 2023. Hardware operates within spec 99.99% of the time, unless the data center is literally on fire. AWS/GCP has outages too, btw. > Yes, AND Nagios, Solarwinds, Cisco, IBM, VMWare, etc. etc. and every one of their subsidiaries that have esoteric needs. If you have all these esoteric needs ON TOP of needing a multi-DC redundant setup with 1000s of servers, then being able to afford 1-2 additional engineers is a complete non-factor. In the cloud, this would mean you're hiring additional cloud engineers anyway. > Ummm...no. Just no. Have you ever had to create multiple subnets, DMZs, SD-WAN setups, plus VPN access, etc. etc. with multiple locations, all with security in mind, and full redundancy across three data centers? "just a linux admin" isn't the job description for that. Again, if that's your use case, then we're not talking about 1 cloud engineer vs 3 non-cloud engineers. We're talking an IT department of several hundred people just for infra. It's absolutely not evident that cloud would result in cost-savings here, because at this scale, everything is on an individual scenario basis.
renonce 4y ago
Simpler solutions like dedicated servers, VPS work well enough, and the service provider will take care of all the above. The problem is with things like AWS and GCP, and once you fall into their wide matrix of products you'll have a hard time escaping out of it.

by mbesto 4y ago

jjav 4y ago

> Hardware specialist, Network specialist, Data center environment specialist If we're talking startups here, still working on product market fit with small active user counts.. this is massive overkill. Every startup I've been part of (except one) could've very easily been hosted from a single server under someone's desk (sure, get two for redundancy). The cost would be approximately nothing instead of a 5 figure AWS monthly bill. This isn't resume-building though, so it doesn't happen. (Amusingly, the one startup I was part of that grew way too big for my "server under the desk" hosting model, they went to a colocated datacenter.) > Security specialist Yes you always need this if you're going to have anything connected on the internet.

Melatonic 4y ago

Generally you just need two people (and then probably should have 2 more for redudancy) which would be the System Engineer and the Network Engineer. Between those two they should abe able to do the datacenter work themselves (with physical assistance for racking / moving heavy equipment which is rare). Some of the superstar infrastructure architects I have met could do both jobs easily themselves (although that is rare). Security you should probably have no matter where your shit is hosted......

antisthenes 4y ago

Umm...no. Just no. > - Security specialist You need them in both environments if you're serious about security. Unless you somehow believe that being in the "cloud" grants you some kind of security by default? > - Hardware specialist (someone who knows how to physically install servers, NAS, SAN, etc.) You can contract this out to the datacenter itself. This is typically a one-time expense when installing infrastructure that will then last the useful lifetime of the hardware (e.g. 5-7 years) > - Data center environment specialist (usually can come with the data center, but they still need to be vetted) What does this even mean? > - Network specialist (someone who knows how to physically install network cards, switches, etc. + config, setup, etc.) Yes, true, a truly robust network setup that is colocated in multiple data-centers is probably the most difficult thing out of the entire setup. > Oh and btw there are 100+ vendors who supply all of this. You mean Dell? Or HP? > So not only do I need to find a, for example, a network specialist, I need to find someone who uses Nagios because my infra lead made that decision. You just need a linux admin on a contract. If they are worth their salt, they don't even have to be full-time.

mbesto 4y ago
> You need them in both environments if you're serious about security. Unless you somehow believe that being in the "cloud" grants you some kind of security by default? I don't disagree that you need a security focused person in cloud. However, the scope of security is drastically different in cloud vs data center (and varies depending on what your data center setup is). > What does this even mean? What happens if your server is overheating? As I said, this is usually provided by data center itself, however you have to still have to vet the vendor. AWS/GCP/Azure all have reputations about environmental factors that are rarely questioned. > You mean Dell? Or HP? Yes, AND Nagios, Solarwinds, Cisco, IBM, VMWare, etc. etc. and every one of their subsidiaries that have esoteric needs. > You just need a linux admin on a contract. Ummm...no. Just no. Have you ever had to create multiple subnets, DMZs, SD-WAN setups, plus VPN access, etc. etc. with multiple locations, all with security in mind, and full redundancy across three data centers? "just a linux admin" isn't the job description for that.
- antisthenes 4y ago
  > What happens if your server is overheating? As I said, this is usually provided by data center itself, however you have to still have to vet the vendor. It's 2023. Hardware operates within spec 99.99% of the time, unless the data center is literally on fire. AWS/GCP has outages too, btw. > Yes, AND Nagios, Solarwinds, Cisco, IBM, VMWare, etc. etc. and every one of their subsidiaries that have esoteric needs. If you have all these esoteric needs ON TOP of needing a multi-DC redundant setup with 1000s of servers, then being able to afford 1-2 additional engineers is a complete non-factor. In the cloud, this would mean you're hiring additional cloud engineers anyway. > Ummm...no. Just no. Have you ever had to create multiple subnets, DMZs, SD-WAN setups, plus VPN access, etc. etc. with multiple locations, all with security in mind, and full redundancy across three data centers? "just a linux admin" isn't the job description for that. Again, if that's your use case, then we're not talking about 1 cloud engineer vs 3 non-cloud engineers. We're talking an IT department of several hundred people just for infra. It's absolutely not evident that cloud would result in cost-savings here, because at this scale, everything is on an individual scenario basis.

renonce 4y ago

Simpler solutions like dedicated servers, VPS work well enough, and the service provider will take care of all the above. The problem is with things like AWS and GCP, and once you fall into their wide matrix of products you'll have a hard time escaping out of it.