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> consider buying 4 USB-C expansion cards, or at least a mix of 4 USB-A or USB-C cards, as they use less power than other cards and you do want to fill those ex

> consider buying 4 USB-C expansion cards, or at least a mix of 4 USB-A or USB-C cards, as they use less power than other cards and you do want to fill those expansion slots otherwise they snag around and feel insecure > in particular, beware that the HDMI, DisplayPort and particularly the SSD and MicroSD cards take a significant amount power, even when sleeping, up to 2-6W for the latter two > you have to do some serious tuning to get proper (10h+ idle, 10 days suspend) power savings Why is the Framework so much worse at these than e.g. the LG gram series? HDMI, 2x USB-C/TB4, 2x USB-A, micro-SD out of the box, no serious tuning required... > 296.63mm X 228.98mm X 15.85mm, 1.3Kg > Battery: 55Wh Why does such a relatively big and heavy laptop have such a comparatively small battery?

giancarlostoro 4y ago
> Why does such a relatively big and heavy laptop have such a comparatively small battery? I hope they provide a beefier battery.
graeber_28927 4y ago
I don't actually know, but the FW "abuses" splitted thunderbolt connections to get to those features, which I must imagine needs beefier controllers and is more energy intense, than solving e.g. microSD in a more direct/integrated way, without thunderbolt in the middle.
- rowanG077 4y ago
  microSD cards are often just using USB that's routed on the PCB.
  - tracker1 4y ago
    I'm frankly surprised that audio doesn't do this, even for more desktop. I'd much rather if desktop case mfg's put a $10 usb dac on the front of the case to a USB 2 header on the motherboard. Would definitely sound better.
agloe_dreams 4y ago
Because, as I kinda expected when this first was launched, The replaceable modules come at a cost of not just internal size but also structure. You can't just cut out the corners but actually need to re-enforce everywhere you cut out. Then, where they put the card slots normally contains speakers in this category, so they needed to move those down to the battery area. Finally, every internal component needed to be packaged for repair. (Also, I'm not sure about the choice to go dual 2280s on a 13 inch) https://images.idgesg.net/images/article/2021/07/framework_5923-100896467-large.jpg?auto=webp&quality=85,70 https://images.idgesg.net/images/article/2021/07/framework_5... Note how remarkably large the speakers are, how much structure is around the battery, and how much the logic board is pushed down. We all hate the reduction in reparability in modern macbooks but look at the outcome: https://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2021/10/macbook-pro-teardown-1.jpg https://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2021/10/macbook-pro... This is a 14 inch Macbook Pro. It fills every last inch with equipment that, each on their own, are best in class. The battery is 30% bigger. The Speakers are louder and have more bass, the system is designed to handle far more wattage from the SOC. The Framework laptop is a great first attempt, but I'm not really convinced they are quite there yet. They really need to drop the Macbook Air design and go for boxy here to maximise volume. It absolutely needs a dedicated GPU option. Having a laptop a lightly technically minded person can repair easily makes little sense if it isn't targeted at their niche. Generally you start deep in the niche and move mass-market as you expand.
- schmorptron 4y ago
  Do you think there's a happy middle ground to be found then between the extensibility of the expansion cards and internal space for stuff like speakers and battery then. I think I'd be very happy with 2 expansion card slots and 3 hardwired USB C ports that can be upgraded with mainboard revisions to support newer USB standards.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  > We all hate the reduction in reparability in modern macbooks but look at the outcome There are two diffetent problems with repairability - one is making it easy for a dilebtante to replace parts. The other, is making parts and schematics avaliable so that a specialist can repair it. You don't actually have to change the design. This is what Luis Rossman is talking about > Dedicated GPU Yeah I only buy laptops with GPUs. Honestly laptops outside power user/gaming niche rarely need things replaced
heavyset_go 4y ago
> Why is the Framework so much worse at these than e.g. the LG gram series? HDMI, 2x USB-C/TB4, 2x USB-A, micro-SD out of the box, no serious tuning required... I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone at Framework is hacking on Linux and upstreaming drivers that implement efficient power management correctly. I also don't think they're hacking on custom firmware for components, either. Looks like System76, for example, puts a lot of work in to get white label Clevo laptops working pretty well with Linux. Framework is likely working with whatever the kernel already supports, and often times it's hard to implement good power management for components because the documentation isn't available, so you're lucky if someone spent time trying to reverse engineer anything at all. Also conjecture: I don't think Framework is designing low-level hardware, either, and the boards they design/buy aren't optimized for power saving versus actually shipping a product. I'd assume that LG has more resources dedicated to power efficiency when it comes to time, money and manpower, and they have kernel hackers on their payroll, as they roll and deploy their own Linux-based OS. It could also just be chance, where the LG gram just happens to be built with well supported components.
- zdragnar 4y ago
  The gram doesn't have an option to come with Linux installed (at least mine didn't). If they were doing custom Linux work, I would have to imagine that they'd offer Linux as an OS too. In any case, I'm incredibly pleased with mine, the battery life really is fantastic and knowing it can be this good is probably the only reason a framework wouldn't be my next laptop.
  - formerly_proven 4y ago
    I suspect the grams are just very close to Intel's reference platforms which is probably why they work so well.
- lhl 4y ago
  Framework is in fact are working on the firmware to improve battery life, primarily with the Intel TB4 (Burnside Bridge) retimers. Here's the work to reduce power consumption w/ the DP expansion card: https://community.frame.work/t/beta-displayport-expansion-card-firmware-update-to-reduce-system-power-consumption/22325?page=2 https://community.frame.work/t/beta-displayport-expansion-ca... And here they talk about what they learned working on the Chromebook version: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32927094 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32927094 that they've been working on in the latest (beta currently) BIOS updates: https://community.frame.work/t/12th-gen-intel-core-bios-3-06-beta/25726 https://community.frame.work/t/12th-gen-intel-core-bios-3-06... For anyone interested, you can take a look at their community forums - they're doing as much Linux support as anyone else out there I think: https://community.frame.work/ https://community.frame.work/ The LG gram has a few things going for it: * Soldered LPDDR memory is lower power than SODIMMs * Not having the extra retimer, not needing it to be active unless the TB4 port is used * A lower res display (1920x1200) * A 72Wh battery, which is 30% bigger than the 55Wh in the Framework That being said, LG (and other ODM/OEMs) have been making laptops for almost 20 years, and Framework is on year two on basically their first design, so it's probably to be expected that they have some stuff to learn/improve.
mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
I kind of wish they had version without the modular ports. It's a neat gimmick, but I really don't need it for anything. I just need the same 4 connectors: Usb-C for charging/docking, some USB-A ports, ethernet and a 3.5mm jack. I don't see those needs really changing. Faster USB speeds I can take or leave, but that would be limited by the underlying Thunderbolt at some point anyway. I guess it improves repairability and all. But eh, I never had a laptop where those parts failed before any other parts. So if I can just pay someone to help me solder on a new port the once pr decade one might fail, I'm ok with that. Or maybe they could make it easily replaceable without the modularity, that'd be great.
- aidenn0 4y ago
  > never had a laptop where those parts failed before any other parts HDMI port is first thing to die on last two laptops. Thanks to thunderbolt, I didn't have to junk the more recent laptop, but I do need a dongle for HDMI which is mildly infuriating.
  - mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
    Yeah, HDMI is a notoriously failure prone connector I've found. I avoid it if I can, though I don't have any use for it on my laptop. My Thinkpad has one, could be dead I suppose since I never use it :P
- trinsic2 4y ago
  Yeah this is a good insight. It's likely this lines up with what most customers of laptops would think if they learned about the framework laptop for the first time. When I first heard about the port changing feature I thought it was cool and useful. But i am now starting to wonder how often it would be used even by myself if I had one.
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
    I imagine the point isn't for you to keep on switching the ports out every day. Rather, it's so everyone can get the ports they want with minimal overhead for Framework the company (fewer SKUs, less spare inventory, etc.). It's like LEGO: You can put together exactly what you want using exactly the bricks you want, and you aren't expected to take it all apart and build something new the next day just because you could either.
hk1337 4y ago
> consider buying 4 USB-C expansion cards, or at least a mix of 4 USB-A or USB-C cards, as they use less power than other cards and you do want to fill those expansion slots otherwise they snag around and feel insecure The connectors for the expansion cards are all USB-C too, so if it's beneficial to have connection further in instead of right at the edge, you could go without an expansion card for a slot at all.
yunohn 4y ago
> take a significant amount power, even when *sleeping*, up to 2-6W for the latter two What… how, why? I think it’s unacceptable for a laptop in sleep mode to be draining energy at that rate. Must be a bug, I refuse to believe they tested this and though it’s ok?

giancarlostoro 4y ago

> Why does such a relatively big and heavy laptop have such a comparatively small battery? I hope they provide a beefier battery.

graeber_28927 4y ago

I don't actually know, but the FW "abuses" splitted thunderbolt connections to get to those features, which I must imagine needs beefier controllers and is more energy intense, than solving e.g. microSD in a more direct/integrated way, without thunderbolt in the middle.

rowanG077 4y ago
microSD cards are often just using USB that's routed on the PCB.
- tracker1 4y ago
  I'm frankly surprised that audio doesn't do this, even for more desktop. I'd much rather if desktop case mfg's put a $10 usb dac on the front of the case to a USB 2 header on the motherboard. Would definitely sound better.

agloe_dreams 4y ago

Because, as I kinda expected when this first was launched, The replaceable modules come at a cost of not just internal size but also structure. You can't just cut out the corners but actually need to re-enforce everywhere you cut out. Then, where they put the card slots normally contains speakers in this category, so they needed to move those down to the battery area. Finally, every internal component needed to be packaged for repair. (Also, I'm not sure about the choice to go dual 2280s on a 13 inch) https://images.idgesg.net/images/article/2021/07/framework_5923-100896467-large.jpg?auto=webp&quality=85,70 https://images.idgesg.net/images/article/2021/07/framework_5... Note how remarkably large the speakers are, how much structure is around the battery, and how much the logic board is pushed down. We all hate the reduction in reparability in modern macbooks but look at the outcome: https://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2021/10/macbook-pro-teardown-1.jpg https://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2021/10/macbook-pro... This is a 14 inch Macbook Pro. It fills every last inch with equipment that, each on their own, are best in class. The battery is 30% bigger. The Speakers are louder and have more bass, the system is designed to handle far more wattage from the SOC. The Framework laptop is a great first attempt, but I'm not really convinced they are quite there yet. They really need to drop the Macbook Air design and go for boxy here to maximise volume. It absolutely needs a dedicated GPU option. Having a laptop a lightly technically minded person can repair easily makes little sense if it isn't targeted at their niche. Generally you start deep in the niche and move mass-market as you expand.

schmorptron 4y ago
Do you think there's a happy middle ground to be found then between the extensibility of the expansion cards and internal space for stuff like speakers and battery then. I think I'd be very happy with 2 expansion card slots and 3 hardwired USB C ports that can be upgraded with mainboard revisions to support newer USB standards.
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
> We all hate the reduction in reparability in modern macbooks but look at the outcome There are two diffetent problems with repairability - one is making it easy for a dilebtante to replace parts. The other, is making parts and schematics avaliable so that a specialist can repair it. You don't actually have to change the design. This is what Luis Rossman is talking about > Dedicated GPU Yeah I only buy laptops with GPUs. Honestly laptops outside power user/gaming niche rarely need things replaced

heavyset_go 4y ago

> Why is the Framework so much worse at these than e.g. the LG gram series? HDMI, 2x USB-C/TB4, 2x USB-A, micro-SD out of the box, no serious tuning required... I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone at Framework is hacking on Linux and upstreaming drivers that implement efficient power management correctly. I also don't think they're hacking on custom firmware for components, either. Looks like System76, for example, puts a lot of work in to get white label Clevo laptops working pretty well with Linux. Framework is likely working with whatever the kernel already supports, and often times it's hard to implement good power management for components because the documentation isn't available, so you're lucky if someone spent time trying to reverse engineer anything at all. Also conjecture: I don't think Framework is designing low-level hardware, either, and the boards they design/buy aren't optimized for power saving versus actually shipping a product. I'd assume that LG has more resources dedicated to power efficiency when it comes to time, money and manpower, and they have kernel hackers on their payroll, as they roll and deploy their own Linux-based OS. It could also just be chance, where the LG gram just happens to be built with well supported components.

zdragnar 4y ago
The gram doesn't have an option to come with Linux installed (at least mine didn't). If they were doing custom Linux work, I would have to imagine that they'd offer Linux as an OS too. In any case, I'm incredibly pleased with mine, the battery life really is fantastic and knowing it can be this good is probably the only reason a framework wouldn't be my next laptop.
- formerly_proven 4y ago
  I suspect the grams are just very close to Intel's reference platforms which is probably why they work so well.
lhl 4y ago
Framework is in fact are working on the firmware to improve battery life, primarily with the Intel TB4 (Burnside Bridge) retimers. Here's the work to reduce power consumption w/ the DP expansion card: https://community.frame.work/t/beta-displayport-expansion-card-firmware-update-to-reduce-system-power-consumption/22325?page=2 https://community.frame.work/t/beta-displayport-expansion-ca... And here they talk about what they learned working on the Chromebook version: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32927094 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32927094 that they've been working on in the latest (beta currently) BIOS updates: https://community.frame.work/t/12th-gen-intel-core-bios-3-06-beta/25726 https://community.frame.work/t/12th-gen-intel-core-bios-3-06... For anyone interested, you can take a look at their community forums - they're doing as much Linux support as anyone else out there I think: https://community.frame.work/ https://community.frame.work/ The LG gram has a few things going for it: * Soldered LPDDR memory is lower power than SODIMMs * Not having the extra retimer, not needing it to be active unless the TB4 port is used * A lower res display (1920x1200) * A 72Wh battery, which is 30% bigger than the 55Wh in the Framework That being said, LG (and other ODM/OEMs) have been making laptops for almost 20 years, and Framework is on year two on basically their first design, so it's probably to be expected that they have some stuff to learn/improve.

mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago

I kind of wish they had version without the modular ports. It's a neat gimmick, but I really don't need it for anything. I just need the same 4 connectors: Usb-C for charging/docking, some USB-A ports, ethernet and a 3.5mm jack. I don't see those needs really changing. Faster USB speeds I can take or leave, but that would be limited by the underlying Thunderbolt at some point anyway. I guess it improves repairability and all. But eh, I never had a laptop where those parts failed before any other parts. So if I can just pay someone to help me solder on a new port the once pr decade one might fail, I'm ok with that. Or maybe they could make it easily replaceable without the modularity, that'd be great.

aidenn0 4y ago
> never had a laptop where those parts failed before any other parts HDMI port is first thing to die on last two laptops. Thanks to thunderbolt, I didn't have to junk the more recent laptop, but I do need a dongle for HDMI which is mildly infuriating.
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
  Yeah, HDMI is a notoriously failure prone connector I've found. I avoid it if I can, though I don't have any use for it on my laptop. My Thinkpad has one, could be dead I suppose since I never use it :P
trinsic2 4y ago
Yeah this is a good insight. It's likely this lines up with what most customers of laptops would think if they learned about the framework laptop for the first time. When I first heard about the port changing feature I thought it was cool and useful. But i am now starting to wonder how often it would be used even by myself if I had one.
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  I imagine the point isn't for you to keep on switching the ports out every day. Rather, it's so everyone can get the ports they want with minimal overhead for Framework the company (fewer SKUs, less spare inventory, etc.). It's like LEGO: You can put together exactly what you want using exactly the bricks you want, and you aren't expected to take it all apart and build something new the next day just because you could either.

hk1337 4y ago

> consider buying 4 USB-C expansion cards, or at least a mix of 4 USB-A or USB-C cards, as they use less power than other cards and you do want to fill those expansion slots otherwise they snag around and feel insecure The connectors for the expansion cards are all USB-C too, so if it's beneficial to have connection further in instead of right at the edge, you could go without an expansion card for a slot at all.

yunohn 4y ago

> take a significant amount power, even when *sleeping*, up to 2-6W for the latter two What… how, why? I think it’s unacceptable for a laptop in sleep mode to be draining energy at that rate. Must be a bug, I refuse to believe they tested this and though it’s ok?