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> "The results indicate that higher wages along with additional non-wage benefits would have expanded the labor supply," the study said. > But for now, Republi

> "The results indicate that higher wages along with additional non-wage benefits would have expanded the labor supply," the study said. > But for now, Republican legislators are starting to turn to teenagers. executives & shareholders: "we would rather hire kids than pay a living wage to adults"

brookst 4y ago
It’s a win-win; it might also reduce the kids’ propensity to waste time on edu stool, thus improving the pipeline of cheap labor and voters who don’t see anything wrong with being a perpetual underclass.
SoftTalker 4y ago
What’s wrong with giving teens work experience doing low value jobs?
- slater 4y ago
  What's wrong with paying adults a livable wage?
  - ghaff 4y ago
    Nothing wrong with it--whatever that term has come to mean exactly. But, as many SV companies have found out over the years as VC subsidies have dried up, there are a ton of services people want but only so much money most people will pay for them. Pick up and drop off laundry? Sign me up! For $50? Umm. Maybe I'll pass. Of course you see this effect where middle class people in developing countries have far more full-time help than all but the wealthiest do in the US and Western Europe. I suspect that in the coming years, we'll see far more self-service, automation, and some services that are pretty commonplace today becoming much more of a luxury.
  - walkhour 4y ago
    If the value of their production exceeds the living wage, nothing. If it doesn't, there's nothing the company can do but pay less than the living wage or fire the employee.
- matsemann 4y ago
  Why are the jobs "low value", and why don't those who do them deserve to make ends meet?
  - SoftTalker 4y ago
    Not all work is worth a living wage, and not all workers are in need of that. If you try to force that, the work will either just not get done or it will be automated, and more people will be unemployed. Experience showing up to work, following instructions, getting along with bosses and coworkers is valuable even if the work itself requires little skill.
    - falcolas 4y ago
      > Not all work is worth a living wage. And there we have it. "I don't view your work as being valuable enough to justify you being able to obtain basic needs for yourself (like food and shelter), let alone a family. Now give me my frappe." Funny how we will still call such employees "essential" when it's time to force them to work in shitty and potentially dangerous conditions.
      - SoftTalker 4y ago
        Sweeping the floor at a factory is just not a high value job. Anyone can do it, and if you demand that they pay $40/hr with full benefits they will just buy industrial Roombas and deprive someone of a job he may have been happy to have as a first job or for supplemental income.
        ssnistfajen 4y ago
        >if you demand that they pay $40/hr with full benefits >a job he may have been happy to have as a first job or for supplemental income You are contradicting yourself here. Those two conditions don't occur at the same time.
        SoftTalker 4y ago
- Ekaros 4y ago
  Why not give them experience working in high value jobs? Like software. I'm sure with some training we could flood the market with very cheap front end developers for example.
- ssnistfajen 4y ago
  You just described these jobs as "low value", so what valuable work experience can be gained for teens? What are the work hours like for teens? Is the work environment safe enough for teens? Teens aged 14 and above are already able to work relatively long hours under current child labour laws, so why are you speaking as if teens in the US are forbidden from any type of work? https://www.oshaeducationcenter.com/articles/child-labor-laws/#:~:text=Legal%20Hours%20and%20Jobs%20for,per%20week%20while%20in%20school https://www.oshaeducationcenter.com/articles/child-labor-law....
- thebradbain 4y ago
  The industries that are excited to use child labor (which is what this is) are only doing so because they have a shortage of capable adult workers that want to work in the conditions and for the pay provided. Aside from the fact that most kids can’t tell when they’re being exploited, why should kids be the stopgap for corporations that not even adults want According to the rules of the “free market”, these jobs should either provide better conditions or working conditions or both in order to attract talent, because the issue is not an oversupply of capable workers, it’s less.
  - ssnistfajen 4y ago
    Or in the case where passing the cost of better pay & benefits onto the customers will reduce demand of their products/services making continued operation unviable, then their business don't deserve to continue to exist. But instead of letting the free market sort itself out, they seek to exploit children in order to prop up their unethical and unviable business.
- thebradbain 4y ago
  The industries that are excited to use child labor (which is what this is) are only doing so because they have a shortage of capable adult workers that want to work in the conditions and for the pay provided. Aside from the fact that most kids can’t tell when they’re being exploited, why should kids be the stopgap for corporations that not even adults want According to the rules of the “free market”, these jobs should either provide better conditions or working conditions or both in order to attract talent, because there’s plenty of workers— they just don’t want to work for the lack of return.
  - thebradbain 4y ago
    I don’t know how what was supposed to be an edit seemingly posted a new comment, sorry for the dup
- ilyt 4y ago
  Coz you don't get useful experience from low value jobs. Also what's wrong with companies having to pay living wage instead of child labour ?
b112 4y ago
I don't understand. The current labour shortage is, 100%, hands down, fully stop, start to finish, a result of boomers retiring. This has been a known thing, an upcoming problem for decades. Everyone knew this was coming. Everyone. Canada is trying to get out of this hole (the fact that there are 1.4 births per two Canadians), the "population collapse" hole, via immigration, with 500k immigrants per year. That would be like 5M immigrants per year in the US. For a comparison, due to the 1 child policy, China's population will halve before 2035. China is in very, very serious trouble. The entire West is too, but China's trouble will be far worse. Japan keeps building robots, and mechanized walk-assist devices. There was no "great resignation", simply a well known "great retirement". Now, should people be paid a decent wage? Of course!! But that won't change this problem one bit, as there are simply not enough working age adults. And to highlight this, not only do retirees reduce thr number of candidates available for work, they also require more care. Health care, end of life care, nursing homes. Heck, expecting an independent 70 year old to shingle a roof, something a cash strapped 30 year old might engage in, is far less likely. So a "too heavy" society is a major issue. And we knew it was coming, for decades, and did not resolve the issue. For additional clarity, the world will be at about 5 billion at 2040, without war or plague.
- 0xfaded 4y ago
  Cash strapped 30 year olds are most likely to engage when engagement means no longer being cash strapped. To resolve that, the 60yo+ generation now controlling 80% of the wealth will need to part with that wealth to incentivize the following generation to maintain their standard of living. It turned out that when pressured with indefinite hand-to-mouth conditions, people found other ways to checkout of the economy, even if it meant living in the woods.
  - b112 4y ago
    Cash strapped 30 year olds are most likely to engage when engagement means no longer being cash strapped. This isn't the cause of the labour shortage, and it will not solve it either. Note: I already said; fair wage is sensible. To resolve that, the 60yo+ generation now controlling 80% of the wealth will need to part with that wealth to This number is wildly inaccurate. But beyond that, no one is hoarding anything. Instead, it is called "retirement savings". It is money for housing, health care, nursing home costs, food, and to help offspring. Once retired, the valves open, because few have pensions, and even those that do, it is not enough. So your desire already happens, naturally. What you are describing is called "being responsible", and an attempt for people to not burden themselves on their children. These are not miserable bastards, trying to keep money from the young. And when these people die, that money doesn't vanish, it flows to offspring.

brookst 4y ago

It’s a win-win; it might also reduce the kids’ propensity to waste time on edu stool, thus improving the pipeline of cheap labor and voters who don’t see anything wrong with being a perpetual underclass.

SoftTalker 4y ago

What’s wrong with giving teens work experience doing low value jobs?

slater 4y ago
What's wrong with paying adults a livable wage?
- ghaff 4y ago
  Nothing wrong with it--whatever that term has come to mean exactly. But, as many SV companies have found out over the years as VC subsidies have dried up, there are a ton of services people want but only so much money most people will pay for them. Pick up and drop off laundry? Sign me up! For $50? Umm. Maybe I'll pass. Of course you see this effect where middle class people in developing countries have far more full-time help than all but the wealthiest do in the US and Western Europe. I suspect that in the coming years, we'll see far more self-service, automation, and some services that are pretty commonplace today becoming much more of a luxury.
- walkhour 4y ago
  If the value of their production exceeds the living wage, nothing. If it doesn't, there's nothing the company can do but pay less than the living wage or fire the employee.
matsemann 4y ago
Why are the jobs "low value", and why don't those who do them deserve to make ends meet?
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  Not all work is worth a living wage, and not all workers are in need of that. If you try to force that, the work will either just not get done or it will be automated, and more people will be unemployed. Experience showing up to work, following instructions, getting along with bosses and coworkers is valuable even if the work itself requires little skill.
  - falcolas 4y ago
    > Not all work is worth a living wage. And there we have it. "I don't view your work as being valuable enough to justify you being able to obtain basic needs for yourself (like food and shelter), let alone a family. Now give me my frappe." Funny how we will still call such employees "essential" when it's time to force them to work in shitty and potentially dangerous conditions.
    - SoftTalker 4y ago
      Sweeping the floor at a factory is just not a high value job. Anyone can do it, and if you demand that they pay $40/hr with full benefits they will just buy industrial Roombas and deprive someone of a job he may have been happy to have as a first job or for supplemental income.
      - ssnistfajen 4y ago
        >if you demand that they pay $40/hr with full benefits >a job he may have been happy to have as a first job or for supplemental income You are contradicting yourself here. Those two conditions don't occur at the same time.
        SoftTalker 4y ago
Ekaros 4y ago
Why not give them experience working in high value jobs? Like software. I'm sure with some training we could flood the market with very cheap front end developers for example.
ssnistfajen 4y ago
You just described these jobs as "low value", so what valuable work experience can be gained for teens? What are the work hours like for teens? Is the work environment safe enough for teens? Teens aged 14 and above are already able to work relatively long hours under current child labour laws, so why are you speaking as if teens in the US are forbidden from any type of work? https://www.oshaeducationcenter.com/articles/child-labor-laws/#:~:text=Legal%20Hours%20and%20Jobs%20for,per%20week%20while%20in%20school https://www.oshaeducationcenter.com/articles/child-labor-law....
thebradbain 4y ago
The industries that are excited to use child labor (which is what this is) are only doing so because they have a shortage of capable adult workers that want to work in the conditions and for the pay provided. Aside from the fact that most kids can’t tell when they’re being exploited, why should kids be the stopgap for corporations that not even adults want According to the rules of the “free market”, these jobs should either provide better conditions or working conditions or both in order to attract talent, because the issue is not an oversupply of capable workers, it’s less.
- ssnistfajen 4y ago
  Or in the case where passing the cost of better pay & benefits onto the customers will reduce demand of their products/services making continued operation unviable, then their business don't deserve to continue to exist. But instead of letting the free market sort itself out, they seek to exploit children in order to prop up their unethical and unviable business.
thebradbain 4y ago
The industries that are excited to use child labor (which is what this is) are only doing so because they have a shortage of capable adult workers that want to work in the conditions and for the pay provided. Aside from the fact that most kids can’t tell when they’re being exploited, why should kids be the stopgap for corporations that not even adults want According to the rules of the “free market”, these jobs should either provide better conditions or working conditions or both in order to attract talent, because there’s plenty of workers— they just don’t want to work for the lack of return.
- thebradbain 4y ago
  I don’t know how what was supposed to be an edit seemingly posted a new comment, sorry for the dup
ilyt 4y ago
Coz you don't get useful experience from low value jobs. Also what's wrong with companies having to pay living wage instead of child labour ?

b112 4y ago

I don't understand. The current labour shortage is, 100%, hands down, fully stop, start to finish, a result of boomers retiring. This has been a known thing, an upcoming problem for decades. Everyone knew this was coming. Everyone. Canada is trying to get out of this hole (the fact that there are 1.4 births per two Canadians), the "population collapse" hole, via immigration, with 500k immigrants per year. That would be like 5M immigrants per year in the US. For a comparison, due to the 1 child policy, China's population will halve before 2035. China is in very, very serious trouble. The entire West is too, but China's trouble will be far worse. Japan keeps building robots, and mechanized walk-assist devices. There was no "great resignation", simply a well known "great retirement". Now, should people be paid a decent wage? Of course!! But that won't change this problem one bit, as there are simply not enough working age adults. And to highlight this, not only do retirees reduce thr number of candidates available for work, they also require more care. Health care, end of life care, nursing homes. Heck, expecting an independent 70 year old to shingle a roof, something a cash strapped 30 year old might engage in, is far less likely. So a "too heavy" society is a major issue. And we knew it was coming, for decades, and did not resolve the issue. For additional clarity, the world will be at about 5 billion at 2040, without war or plague.

0xfaded 4y ago
Cash strapped 30 year olds are most likely to engage when engagement means no longer being cash strapped. To resolve that, the 60yo+ generation now controlling 80% of the wealth will need to part with that wealth to incentivize the following generation to maintain their standard of living. It turned out that when pressured with indefinite hand-to-mouth conditions, people found other ways to checkout of the economy, even if it meant living in the woods.
- b112 4y ago
  Cash strapped 30 year olds are most likely to engage when engagement means no longer being cash strapped. This isn't the cause of the labour shortage, and it will not solve it either. Note: I already said; fair wage is sensible. To resolve that, the 60yo+ generation now controlling 80% of the wealth will need to part with that wealth to This number is wildly inaccurate. But beyond that, no one is hoarding anything. Instead, it is called "retirement savings". It is money for housing, health care, nursing home costs, food, and to help offspring. Once retired, the valves open, because few have pensions, and even those that do, it is not enough. So your desire already happens, naturally. What you are describing is called "being responsible", and an attempt for people to not burden themselves on their children. These are not miserable bastards, trying to keep money from the young. And when these people die, that money doesn't vanish, it flows to offspring.