10 ms·

Textual is a beautiful Terminal User Interface library in Python

210 points by joss82 4y ago

z3c0 4y ago
I really like Textual. I'm very much the TUI type, and upon discovering it, I decided it would be my go-to for interfaces going forward, as - ideally - I'd be able to run the same apps on my desktop as my home server as my cloud servers. Well on the latter two, I realized I had a huge uphill battle, as SSH apparently uses CRLF over LF, and I was finding myself having to rewrite half the library to accommodate that.* And on the former, it occurred to me that I hate everything about Python's asyncio. I'm sure that'll anger some, but sorry, it's terrible, and it doesn't help that every major version deprecates something in favor of something new. [*] Any advice here would be welcome. I can't find much literature on the subject.
- einpoklum 4y ago
  "half the library" - half of textual, you mean? Also - can you elaborate on how the CRLF vs LF broke your app? Give a code snippet as an example?
  - z3c0 4y ago
    Should've been more clear - I've had to update significant portions of Textual and rich to enable propagating custom line-endings from the top level, but most of the code I touched was in rich. As for the CRLF/LF issue, I paired textual with AsyncSSH, and was successful in making an SSH service hosting the app. However, connecting resulted in a text soup that I initially assumed was the fault of AsyncSSH. After some time, I realized it was due to the line-endings being defaulted to LF by rich (a reasonable decision in any other scenario.) On both points, I'd be happy to share some snippets, but I'm halfway around the world from my home computer currently. If this is more than just a passing interest, I'd be happy to follow up upon my return.
- schemescape 4y ago
  Are the CRLFs related to Windows? I’ve never encountered them anywhere else…
  - z3c0 4y ago
    Same, but I only run Debian-flavored Linux, so that theory was ruled out pretty quickly. It appears to be a default behavior of pseudo-terminals leftover from the days of yore, when CRLF/LF was still an open debate.
- willm 4y ago
  I'm not sure I understand your line endings issue. But we've had Textual working over SSH. If you want to post an issue on the repo, I think we could resolve it.
  - z3c0 4y ago
    Will do, thanks!
benrutter 4y ago
I don't really know why this post is appearing now given textual is already at version 2 and not a new thing, but I love love looovve textual. Alongside rich (also from textualize) its one of those rare libraries that I can't find a single thing I'd change in it.
- fastball 4y ago
  Seems to me that Textual is at v0.14.0?
  - asicsp 4y ago
    probably they meant the addition of CSS (which wasn't present in the initial release)
eddyg 4y ago
Textual is fantastic, and with all the recent widget additions, provides functionality on-par with Go's Bubble Tea[0] / Bubbles[1] combo. The Textual blog[2] is a great place to keep up with new features, along with interesting articles about problems encountered (and solved) during development. Incidentally, Textual[3] is also the name of a very popular open-source[4] IRC client for macOS [0] https://github.com/charmbracelet/bubbletea https://github.com/charmbracelet/bubbletea [1] https://github.com/charmbracelet/bubbles https://github.com/charmbracelet/bubbles [2] https://textual.textualize.io/blog/ https://textual.textualize.io/blog/ [3] https://www.codeux.com/textual/ https://www.codeux.com/textual/ [4] https://github.com/Codeux-Software/Textual https://github.com/Codeux-Software/Textual
guitarbill 4y ago
It's very nice that Textual has a text input widgets. Seems like many TUI libraries have widgets, but lack one to handle text input. So you have to implement this yourself over and over, often forgetting shortcuts people expect (e.g. ctrl+a/e).
- schemescape 4y ago
  What is Ctrl+e?
  - drakythe 4y ago
    Jump to the end of the line. Ctrl+a jumps to the beginning. Both of these assume *nix cli and not windows.
  - avgcorrection 4y ago
    Emacs/GNU readline keybinding for jumping to the end of the line.
billyjobob 4y ago
I fell for the hype that Textual always gets on HN and actually used it for a mid-sized commercial app a few months ago. I figured it was a 'safe' choice, given all the developers here who seem to like it, and it was the only TUI library I could find with corporate backing. Here are my notes. 1. Considering it has actual paid developers working on it for quite a while and VC funding, it still lacks a great many features that I took for granted in all the non-commercial TUI libraries, e.g. menus and dialog boxes. 2. The async nature of the library is unpleasant. Can never be sure when/where your code will run. 3. Lots of 'magic' Python variables and methods that you have to override, but there's no way to discover them in your IDE through the type system. 4. Using CSS for laying out a TUI app makes no sense (unless you are a web developer and have Stockholm syndrome from using it for web apps?) 5. It seems to leak memory. Eventually re-wrote the app from scratch using a different library that gets far less hype and spends no time marketing itself. The result was much better in every way.
- stratosgear 4y ago
  I understand you mean no disrespect to the Textual author, but i would still like to know your comparable alternative...
- pge 4y ago
  what library did you end up using instead?
- drakythe 4y ago
  Would very much like to know about the alternatives, please.
- pmarreck 4y ago
  Seems like a lot of the negatives are tied to Python.
  - danpalmer 4y ago
    I’m not sure that’s really accurate. I found the API rather unpythonic, with lots of use of magic variables and things. The only criticisms above that really apply to Python are the async nature, and that’s only because getting async right in Python frameworks and libraries is hard, it is possible though, Django being a great example.
BaculumMeumEst 4y ago
i invite you change my view: there is absolutely no reason to fetishize the terminal. it’s a shitty interactive window with needless constraints. anything you can do in a tui can be done better in an actual graphical window.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- ducktective 4y ago
  one word: latency
  - BaculumMeumEst 4y ago
    that seems dependent on the gui and terminal in question. on windows, a graphical emacs window has less perceptible latency then a terminal window
    - ducktective 4y ago
      All non-electron terminals have better latency story than cross platform GUIs. Surprised you mentioned Emacs here as it is notoriously laggish in this department.
      - BaculumMeumEst 4y ago
        Have you tried programming in terminals on Windows? I promise you it is horrifying. And my Emacs is pretty stock with native comp.
        aumerle 4y ago
        Your problem is windows
- danpalmer 4y ago
  I’d suggest that the proliferation of software with many possible interactions adding features that let you invoke actions via a command-line like interface (see Ctrl+P command palettes etc) prove that there is a place for these sorts of interfaces. Using a mouse is inefficient, and there are only so many hot keys one can assign and learn. I agree that terminals are fetishised a bit, and I personally find a mix of GUIs and terminals to be the most effective combination, but I think there’s something valuable in the interaction pattern.
fnordpiglet 4y ago
Wish it had rust bindings
- ducktective 4y ago
  I mean, it should be the other way around
riceart 4y ago
[flagged]
- lifeisstillgood 4y ago
  The top comment is several paragraphs of reasoned comment about the features the poster tried and found lacking in the library If you have experience of the library, which I guess you do to arrive at your conclusion please share it - what was crap about the library. What context was your experience? What could be improved (even maybe the top posters decision - you can't improve it just try something else). Try Harder. Please.
lazzlazzlazz 4y ago
Textual keeps coming up — a perennial favorite on Hacker News. But I have yet to encounter high-quality TUI applications that use it. Why is that? Maybe I've messed them and people can post their favorites.
- nmstoker 4y ago
  There's a gallery for Textual: https://www.textualize.io/textual/gallery https://www.textualize.io/textual/gallery And for Rich: https://www.textualize.io/rich/gallery https://www.textualize.io/rich/gallery
- asicsp 4y ago
  There's a list here: https://github.com/davep/transcendent-textual https://github.com/davep/transcendent-textual
wkat4242 4y ago
Judging only by the screenshots it feels like this library is embracing the same "modern" design as mobile apps. Huge buttons, lots of whitespace everywhere. I use terminal apps precisely because I want a lot of information density and responsiveness. But perhaps the screenshots are not comprehensive enough to show what it can do.
- Renaud 4y ago
  I was like you and found out that you can actually remove the extra padding using CSS.
c-smile 4y ago
"Beautiful" is quite subjective... Especially in regard of terminal UI... Or rather beautiful in what sense? Source code, architecture, or what?
coltens 4y ago
According to its official website, Textual lets you get a dynamic layout up and running in minutes and refine the UI by tweaking a few lines. It separates the application logic from the presentation layer, making it easier to maintain and test your code. Textual supports UI elements such as buttons, text boxes, and menus.
fatneckbeard 4y ago
i think its very cool but i have to ask a potentially very rude question that is not meant to be rude was not turbo pascal circa 1993 kind of ... easier to use than the text uis we have now?

210 points by joss82 4y ago

z3c0 4y ago

I really like Textual. I'm very much the TUI type, and upon discovering it, I decided it would be my go-to for interfaces going forward, as - ideally - I'd be able to run the same apps on my desktop as my home server as my cloud servers. Well on the latter two, I realized I had a huge uphill battle, as SSH apparently uses CRLF over LF, and I was finding myself having to rewrite half the library to accommodate that.* And on the former, it occurred to me that I hate everything about Python's asyncio. I'm sure that'll anger some, but sorry, it's terrible, and it doesn't help that every major version deprecates something in favor of something new. [*] Any advice here would be welcome. I can't find much literature on the subject.

einpoklum 4y ago
"half the library" - half of textual, you mean? Also - can you elaborate on how the CRLF vs LF broke your app? Give a code snippet as an example?
- z3c0 4y ago
  Should've been more clear - I've had to update significant portions of Textual and rich to enable propagating custom line-endings from the top level, but most of the code I touched was in rich. As for the CRLF/LF issue, I paired textual with AsyncSSH, and was successful in making an SSH service hosting the app. However, connecting resulted in a text soup that I initially assumed was the fault of AsyncSSH. After some time, I realized it was due to the line-endings being defaulted to LF by rich (a reasonable decision in any other scenario.) On both points, I'd be happy to share some snippets, but I'm halfway around the world from my home computer currently. If this is more than just a passing interest, I'd be happy to follow up upon my return.
schemescape 4y ago
Are the CRLFs related to Windows? I’ve never encountered them anywhere else…
- z3c0 4y ago
  Same, but I only run Debian-flavored Linux, so that theory was ruled out pretty quickly. It appears to be a default behavior of pseudo-terminals leftover from the days of yore, when CRLF/LF was still an open debate.
willm 4y ago
I'm not sure I understand your line endings issue. But we've had Textual working over SSH. If you want to post an issue on the repo, I think we could resolve it.
- z3c0 4y ago
  Will do, thanks!

benrutter 4y ago

I don't really know why this post is appearing now given textual is already at version 2 and not a new thing, but I love love looovve textual. Alongside rich (also from textualize) its one of those rare libraries that I can't find a single thing I'd change in it.

fastball 4y ago
Seems to me that Textual is at v0.14.0?
- asicsp 4y ago
  probably they meant the addition of CSS (which wasn't present in the initial release)

eddyg 4y ago

Textual is fantastic, and with all the recent widget additions, provides functionality on-par with Go's Bubble Tea[0] / Bubbles[1] combo. The Textual blog[2] is a great place to keep up with new features, along with interesting articles about problems encountered (and solved) during development. Incidentally, Textual[3] is also the name of a very popular open-source[4] IRC client for macOS [0] https://github.com/charmbracelet/bubbletea https://github.com/charmbracelet/bubbletea [1] https://github.com/charmbracelet/bubbles https://github.com/charmbracelet/bubbles [2] https://textual.textualize.io/blog/ https://textual.textualize.io/blog/ [3] https://www.codeux.com/textual/ https://www.codeux.com/textual/ [4] https://github.com/Codeux-Software/Textual https://github.com/Codeux-Software/Textual

guitarbill 4y ago

It's very nice that Textual has a text input widgets. Seems like many TUI libraries have widgets, but lack one to handle text input. So you have to implement this yourself over and over, often forgetting shortcuts people expect (e.g. ctrl+a/e).

schemescape 4y ago
What is Ctrl+e?
- drakythe 4y ago
  Jump to the end of the line. Ctrl+a jumps to the beginning. Both of these assume *nix cli and not windows.
- avgcorrection 4y ago
  Emacs/GNU readline keybinding for jumping to the end of the line.

billyjobob 4y ago

I fell for the hype that Textual always gets on HN and actually used it for a mid-sized commercial app a few months ago. I figured it was a 'safe' choice, given all the developers here who seem to like it, and it was the only TUI library I could find with corporate backing. Here are my notes. 1. Considering it has actual paid developers working on it for quite a while and VC funding, it still lacks a great many features that I took for granted in all the non-commercial TUI libraries, e.g. menus and dialog boxes. 2. The async nature of the library is unpleasant. Can never be sure when/where your code will run. 3. Lots of 'magic' Python variables and methods that you have to override, but there's no way to discover them in your IDE through the type system. 4. Using CSS for laying out a TUI app makes no sense (unless you are a web developer and have Stockholm syndrome from using it for web apps?) 5. It seems to leak memory. Eventually re-wrote the app from scratch using a different library that gets far less hype and spends no time marketing itself. The result was much better in every way.

stratosgear 4y ago
I understand you mean no disrespect to the Textual author, but i would still like to know your comparable alternative...
pge 4y ago
what library did you end up using instead?
drakythe 4y ago
Would very much like to know about the alternatives, please.
pmarreck 4y ago
Seems like a lot of the negatives are tied to Python.
- danpalmer 4y ago
  I’m not sure that’s really accurate. I found the API rather unpythonic, with lots of use of magic variables and things. The only criticisms above that really apply to Python are the async nature, and that’s only because getting async right in Python frameworks and libraries is hard, it is possible though, Django being a great example.

BaculumMeumEst 4y ago

i invite you change my view: there is absolutely no reason to fetishize the terminal. it’s a shitty interactive window with needless constraints. anything you can do in a tui can be done better in an actual graphical window.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ducktective 4y ago
one word: latency
- BaculumMeumEst 4y ago
  that seems dependent on the gui and terminal in question. on windows, a graphical emacs window has less perceptible latency then a terminal window
  - ducktective 4y ago
    All non-electron terminals have better latency story than cross platform GUIs. Surprised you mentioned Emacs here as it is notoriously laggish in this department.
    - BaculumMeumEst 4y ago
      Have you tried programming in terminals on Windows? I promise you it is horrifying. And my Emacs is pretty stock with native comp.
      - aumerle 4y ago
        Your problem is windows
danpalmer 4y ago
I’d suggest that the proliferation of software with many possible interactions adding features that let you invoke actions via a command-line like interface (see Ctrl+P command palettes etc) prove that there is a place for these sorts of interfaces. Using a mouse is inefficient, and there are only so many hot keys one can assign and learn. I agree that terminals are fetishised a bit, and I personally find a mix of GUIs and terminals to be the most effective combination, but I think there’s something valuable in the interaction pattern.

fnordpiglet 4y ago

Wish it had rust bindings

ducktective 4y ago
I mean, it should be the other way around

riceart 4y ago

[flagged]

lifeisstillgood 4y ago
The top comment is several paragraphs of reasoned comment about the features the poster tried and found lacking in the library If you have experience of the library, which I guess you do to arrive at your conclusion please share it - what was crap about the library. What context was your experience? What could be improved (even maybe the top posters decision - you can't improve it just try something else). Try Harder. Please.

lazzlazzlazz 4y ago

Textual keeps coming up — a perennial favorite on Hacker News. But I have yet to encounter high-quality TUI applications that use it. Why is that? Maybe I've messed them and people can post their favorites.

nmstoker 4y ago
There's a gallery for Textual: https://www.textualize.io/textual/gallery https://www.textualize.io/textual/gallery And for Rich: https://www.textualize.io/rich/gallery https://www.textualize.io/rich/gallery
asicsp 4y ago
There's a list here: https://github.com/davep/transcendent-textual https://github.com/davep/transcendent-textual

wkat4242 4y ago

Judging only by the screenshots it feels like this library is embracing the same "modern" design as mobile apps. Huge buttons, lots of whitespace everywhere. I use terminal apps precisely because I want a lot of information density and responsiveness. But perhaps the screenshots are not comprehensive enough to show what it can do.

Renaud 4y ago
I was like you and found out that you can actually remove the extra padding using CSS.

c-smile 4y ago

"Beautiful" is quite subjective... Especially in regard of terminal UI... Or rather beautiful in what sense? Source code, architecture, or what?

coltens 4y ago

According to its official website, Textual lets you get a dynamic layout up and running in minutes and refine the UI by tweaking a few lines. It separates the application logic from the presentation layer, making it easier to maintain and test your code. Textual supports UI elements such as buttons, text boxes, and menus.

fatneckbeard 4y ago

i think its very cool but i have to ask a potentially very rude question that is not meant to be rude was not turbo pascal circa 1993 kind of ... easier to use than the text uis we have now?