17 ms·

Can’t wait until you learn that you can copyright a database. As in a collection data and it’s relation fixed in a tangible medium. So yes, by current definiti

by lbotos 4y ago

Can’t wait until you learn that you can copyright a database. As in a collection data and it’s relation fixed in a tangible medium. So yes, by current definition model weights are absolutely eligible for copyright.

BaseballPhysics 4y ago
The key is that it's a fixed representation. But if I pull your weights and create my own representation, it wouldn't surprise me if that was not considered a derivative work, in the same way I can publish someone else's recipe so long as I rewrite it. In the end we'll see, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if courts ruled that the data itself was not protected.
- lbotos 4y ago
  Recipes are not databases. You can repost a recipe straight up. The recipe itself is not copyrightable. The blog post/cookbook/etc which has a recipe embedded could be. (Copyrighted works can contain uncopyrightable elements)
  - BaseballPhysics 4y ago
    That's not at all true. If I take a picture of a recipe from a cookbook and post it, that is absolutely a copyright violation, as the specific presentation is a copyrighted work. This is because you can't copyright facts or procedures, but you can copyright specific representations/presentations of those facts or procedures. If I take that recipes, type it out, and post my own version? Yeah, that's totally fine. But I can't verbatim copy yours.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - lbotos 4y ago
      You didn’t “copy the recipe” You copied the fixed representation of that recipe and reproduced it. Yes, we agree. That is copyright infringement. You do not have that right. Edit: I see my use of “repost” was the hinging confusion. Yes, that isn’t right. You can “reproduce the recipe”. When I said repost I meant copy and paste the text.
      - BaseballPhysics 4y ago
        Be careful, even copying and pasting the text can get you in trouble depending on what's in that text (I suspect this is one of the reasons modern recipe websites include so much damn narrative crap, as it makes it easier to assert copyright ownership over the work), but I grant I'm kinda nitpicking at this point, I agree, I think we're on the same page. :)
    - Hizonner 4y ago
      > If I take that recipes, type it out, and post my own version? You probably need to make sure that you change any elements that aren't either common standards of how recipes are written ("preheat oven to 350 degrees"), or absolutely dictated by the requirement to convey the procedure. Which for a recipe probably just amounts to a paraphrase at most. But I don't think you can get away with copying every recipe absolutely verbatim. The real problem, of course, is that people with money, and adherents of certain ideologies presently popular among people with both money and power, are pressing for the widest possible definition of what's creative in every possible area, because they fundamentally think that the best policy is that absolutely everything should be ownable somehow. I suspect that the actual practical result will be that if, as should happen and very well may happen in some countries, courts decide that copyright law doesn't cover ML models, legislators will just extend copyright law until it does.
notahacker 4y ago
The trouble with anyone trying to copyright their model weights is that it's likely to make legal arguments their model isn't a derivative work of copyrighted inputs harder to sustain. Successfully copyrighting model weights (like databases or maps or other non-creative representations of factual inputted data) would be a very favourable outcome for creators of NNs who exclusively use licensed or public domain content, but not so much for a lot of the existing state of the art ML models...
- lbotos 4y ago
  Sure. And there are companies now that are training models on licensed data and those models are def 100% copyrightable without question (it’s a database)
jrochkind1 4y ago
I think whether you can "copyright a database" has a somewhat more complicated answer than you suggest, especially in the USA. Was the "selection and arrangements" of the weights made by a human using at least some minimal level of creativity? I'm not really sure, it's an odd question. I'd lean toward no. https://sco.library.emory.edu/research-data-management/publishing/copyright-data.html https://sco.library.emory.edu/research-data-management/publi...

by lbotos 4y ago

BaseballPhysics 4y ago

The key is that it's a fixed representation. But if I pull your weights and create my own representation, it wouldn't surprise me if that was not considered a derivative work, in the same way I can publish someone else's recipe so long as I rewrite it. In the end we'll see, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if courts ruled that the data itself was not protected.

lbotos 4y ago
Recipes are not databases. You can repost a recipe straight up. The recipe itself is not copyrightable. The blog post/cookbook/etc which has a recipe embedded could be. (Copyrighted works can contain uncopyrightable elements)
- BaseballPhysics 4y ago
  That's not at all true. If I take a picture of a recipe from a cookbook and post it, that is absolutely a copyright violation, as the specific presentation is a copyrighted work. This is because you can't copyright facts or procedures, but you can copyright specific representations/presentations of those facts or procedures. If I take that recipes, type it out, and post my own version? Yeah, that's totally fine. But I can't verbatim copy yours.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - lbotos 4y ago
    You didn’t “copy the recipe” You copied the fixed representation of that recipe and reproduced it. Yes, we agree. That is copyright infringement. You do not have that right. Edit: I see my use of “repost” was the hinging confusion. Yes, that isn’t right. You can “reproduce the recipe”. When I said repost I meant copy and paste the text.
    - BaseballPhysics 4y ago
      Be careful, even copying and pasting the text can get you in trouble depending on what's in that text (I suspect this is one of the reasons modern recipe websites include so much damn narrative crap, as it makes it easier to assert copyright ownership over the work), but I grant I'm kinda nitpicking at this point, I agree, I think we're on the same page. :)
  - Hizonner 4y ago
    > If I take that recipes, type it out, and post my own version? You probably need to make sure that you change any elements that aren't either common standards of how recipes are written ("preheat oven to 350 degrees"), or absolutely dictated by the requirement to convey the procedure. Which for a recipe probably just amounts to a paraphrase at most. But I don't think you can get away with copying every recipe absolutely verbatim. The real problem, of course, is that people with money, and adherents of certain ideologies presently popular among people with both money and power, are pressing for the widest possible definition of what's creative in every possible area, because they fundamentally think that the best policy is that absolutely everything should be ownable somehow. I suspect that the actual practical result will be that if, as should happen and very well may happen in some countries, courts decide that copyright law doesn't cover ML models, legislators will just extend copyright law until it does.

notahacker 4y ago

The trouble with anyone trying to copyright their model weights is that it's likely to make legal arguments their model isn't a derivative work of copyrighted inputs harder to sustain. Successfully copyrighting model weights (like databases or maps or other non-creative representations of factual inputted data) would be a very favourable outcome for creators of NNs who exclusively use licensed or public domain content, but not so much for a lot of the existing state of the art ML models...

lbotos 4y ago
Sure. And there are companies now that are training models on licensed data and those models are def 100% copyrightable without question (it’s a database)

jrochkind1 4y ago

I think whether you can "copyright a database" has a somewhat more complicated answer than you suggest, especially in the USA. Was the "selection and arrangements" of the weights made by a human using at least some minimal level of creativity? I'm not really sure, it's an odd question. I'd lean toward no. https://sco.library.emory.edu/research-data-management/publishing/copyright-data.html https://sco.library.emory.edu/research-data-management/publi...