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I’m no farmer but wouldn’t putting a whole bunch of stuff in a field make it difficult to drive a tractor through it? Like have you seen the size of modern trac

I’m no farmer but wouldn’t putting a whole bunch of stuff in a field make it difficult to drive a tractor through it? Like have you seen the size of modern tractors? These panels will need to be 20ft in the air with support posts really far apart to accommodate seed drills and sprayers and other equipment that the tractor pulls behind it.

nhumrich 4y ago
Yes, I think a single picture of a farm setup this way would have increased the value of this article quite a bit.
- yazaddaruvala 4y ago
  This[0] is a berry farm I was just at. As you can see it’s already covered to protect from extra sun. No tractor could fit anyways. This[1] is one version of agrovoltaics. The solar panels act like window blinds. They can be configured to follow the sun but also can be configured to “provide optimal shade/cooling throughout the day”. [0] https://images.app.goo.gl/mSbtJjtSQRukBQqK6 https://images.app.goo.gl/mSbtJjtSQRukBQqK6 [1] https://images.app.goo.gl/9kakPW8uRHLGp3yJA https://images.app.goo.gl/9kakPW8uRHLGp3yJA
  - hutzlibu 4y ago
    "This[0] is a berry farm I was just at. As you can see it’s already covered to protect from extra sun." Erm, I can see a greenhouse. I think they are made to increase temperature for the plants and not to protect from extra sun. Strawberries like sun and would not benefit from shade, unless we are talking about very intense sunlight and not much water. Most plants usually want as much sun as they can get, so long as the temperature stays in their desired range and enough water is avaiable. So in dry places with lots of sun, acrovoltaics can make some sense, or for plants that like indeed shade, like tomatoes. But it is really not a magic bullet for growing corn and harvesting electricity at the same time. Sheeps grazing under solar panels seems like a working solution that does not need too much effort around it.
    - otherme123 4y ago
      A lot of plants doesn't like and cannot survive the sun at central hours unless you water them like crazy. Basically you are watering to avoid dehydration, but not producing, like drinking in the desert. A lot of plants evolved to thrive near/under trees. Greenhouses can tame the sunlight, and usually they are painted in white in regions of too much sun (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Rl6tMOU84tk https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Rl6tMOU84tk). Also, greenhouses are hot but very humid, so the plants doesn't dehydrate as fast. I could imagine an scheme that instead of watering (costs money) you shade the crops with panels (earns money) during the worst of the day.
      - wil421 4y ago
        I live in the hot and humid Deep South and my strawberries do not mind the sun. There’s a local berry patch that has lots of different berries, including strawberries, and no shades in sight. What’s in OPs image is a greenhouse. The sides can be closed if low temperatures are coming in at night.
    - yencabulator 4y ago
      The examples given in the article are mushrooms and broccoli. Obviously the primary and first use cases would be things that want some shade (in the local environment).
tstrimple 4y ago
Most of the examples I’ve seen are small scale hand pick farming. But there is nothing about 20’ spans that are outside our technical abilities today. This seems like a rather small obstacle to overcome. Of course this still says nothing about the economic feasibility or impacts. Thinking more about it, you wouldn’t even need 20’ spans. You’d have articulating struts coming off of a central point between the rows. Panels can be adjusted out of the way of equipment when it needs to pass through if it is interfering.
fencepost 4y ago
To some extent that falls into the category of "fiddly details." Solar panels are probably not the best choice for use alongside bulk harvested crops like corn, wheat, soybeans and even potatoes, but an awful lot of "produce" crops are harvested by hand. The reason I say "fiddly details" is because questions like "what's the best spacing between rows of panels" and "do I plant under the panels or just between rows" can be decided as people look into available equipment, land prices, crop variation and flexibility, etc.
- Arnt 4y ago
  I don't know about "growing crops", but a farm outside the city where I live has sheep grazing under/around solar panels.
- rektide 4y ago
  Heck yes. It's absurd now but... imagine those crop-water-er things, with a central pivot (ed: "central-pivot-irrigation"). What if instead of just a line of watering, that rotated around, it was a vast overhead rotating circle? Like 80% by area solar panels overhanigng. But also, one radian with all the farm stuff: watering, tiller, planter, harvester? An polar-plotter of tools, with solar panels taking up most everywhere else.
  - catmanjan 4y ago
    I’m actually experimenting with building one of those- the problem is the forces involved compared to the irrigator which is basically just suspending water pipes over the ground
    - dylan604 4y ago
      maybe i'm misremembering, but I was under them impression that the water pressure drove the platform. was i totally wrong on this? i ask, as i would never have guessed adding the weight of solar panels to that would be viable without possibly using some of the generated power to drive a motor.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
detourdog 4y ago
I can tell you are no farmer. No tractor is needed in a field maintained by grazing. If tbe panels are mounted high enough sunlight will be cast on the ground for a period each day.
- mminer237 4y ago
  I am a farmer, and this doesn't make sense. Grazing fields aren't really growing crops. Even if this is just crops that are picked by hand (it mentions broccoli), they typically still have huge machines follow the laborers for them to deposit them in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKyxMKO2kyU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKyxMKO2kyU I can't see any good way to harvest a field with solar panels that isn't so inefficiently laid out that it would be better to have two separate fields.
  - lovemenot 4y ago
    I am not a farmer, but am interested in watching the development of agricultural tech. >> I can't see any good way to harvest a field with solar panels that isn't so inefficiently laid out that it would be better to have two separate fields. Would there be scope for smaller autonomous machines? Presumably, there should be some crop configurations that could benefit, but we don't yet have all the results of experiments currently running. Here in Japan, farms are typically much smaller, so there's perhaps greater scope for agrivoltaics than in industrial scale farms in USA.
    - detourdog 4y ago
      Yes a Beowolf cluster could definitely harvest crops.
  - schiffern 4y ago
    >Grazing fields aren't really growing crops. Right, they grow food for animals, which walk around the field and graze on it autonomously. Hey, I wonder if that's why they're called that... :) I'm not really sure what the point is in making this observation. Just a "farmer vs rancher" thing, or something deeper? >I can't see any good way to harvest a field with solar panels See above.
defrost 4y ago
Picture of sheep grazing under panels in Australia: Solar farm trial shows improved fleece on merino sheep grazed under panels https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2022-05-30/solar-farm-grazing-sheep-agriculture-renewable-energy-review/101097364 https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2022-05-30/solar-farm-graz... Note the room to drive between panel rows and for "boom mowers" to spread out behind a medium tractor and reach under the panels. There are also many types of vehicles used in agriculture from two storey high broad acre heavy duty combine harvesting monsters to small narrow self propelled engines that run through tree trunks in orchard with various attachments to mow (sprung mowing rings), shake trees (to make fruit fall), spray leaves, trench (for irrigation, drainage, etc). Also, see: "Agri-bots" - a revolution not yet complete in small driverless autonomous helpers to run 24/7 weeding, spraying, picking berries, using solar, etc.
- schiffern 4y ago
  >improved fleece on merino sheep grazed under panels Makes sense. I'm not sure the exact care instructions, but I'm pretty sure "store this garment outside unshielded in the baking sun and pouring rain for many months" isn't the official recommendation for wool. If available, sheep (and other animals) will seek cover during heavy rains and periods of high heat stress. This protects both the sheep and the wool, and both factors improve quality. I wouldn't be surprised if the diet improves as well, due to healthier grass, higher plant biodiversity, and higher abundance of (tasty and nutritious) insects. Paradoxically, primary productivity will often increase with added shade, because photosynthesis shuts down at even mildly elevated leaf temperatures (~85 °F). Those vast impressive corn fields will often overheat and shut down around 10 AM, and don't start photosynthesizing again until 4 PM. In ye olden days farmers would plant a widely-spaced grid of "farmer's trees."[0] These are a category of trees (eg black locust) which 1) provided shade and windbreak, 2) coexist with crops right up to their trunk, 3) have deep tap roots bringing up minerals and water, 4) drops fertilizing mulch, and 5) produces nutritious animal fodder (pods) which self-dry and store on the tree itself. Clever farmers! For mechanized farms you can choose a planting pattern and varieties that permit machinery to drive right past the tree without losing much area on "gores." Typical density was about 20-30 trees per hectare, so it also stores a bit of carbon. Personally I prefer trees, but ultimately we need both types of systems. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=25&v=uvQpIHBSPBE https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=25&v=uvQpIHBSPBE
photochemsyn 4y ago
Vertical bifacial panels are one approach that doesn't interfere with tractors and equipment, and still have comparable generation (with twice as many panels, so more expensive): https://www.pv-magazine.com/2023/01/24/vertical-pv-for-clean-energy-and-crop-production/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2023/01/24/vertical-pv-for-clean... > "For conventional ground-mounted systems, the scientists considered a tilt angle of 20 degrees and an average estimated energy yield 1,020 Wh/W. For the bifacial vertical west-east oriented systems, they assumed a bifaciality factor of 90% and an annual energy yield of 999 Wh/W, while for vertical systems with a north-south orientation the annual energy yield was indicated at 926 Wh/W."
- pfdietz 4y ago
  Vertical orientation can also make sense if you're trying to bias the PV to produce more in winter, when the output might be more valuable.
Schroedingersat 4y ago
The crops that are best suited to giant tractors also tend to be less suited to agrivoltaics. They also include energy crops, so you can go from producing no food on land with unprofitable crops that take subsidies to growing food on the land at a profit and producing energy. The land taken up by energy crops exceeds the land needed by solar by over an order of magnitude.
lost_tourist 4y ago
there's no reason to put solar panels on fertile land, there is plenty of land that can be used in other places.
- pbhjpbhj 4y ago
  Solar panels are already being put on fertile land (in UK), so if that land can get dual-use and not waste it's potential for food provision then that seems more optimal. That said, these threads always confirm in me a belief that we need to cut human population replacement to save the planet and our own species.

nhumrich 4y ago

Yes, I think a single picture of a farm setup this way would have increased the value of this article quite a bit.

yazaddaruvala 4y ago
This[0] is a berry farm I was just at. As you can see it’s already covered to protect from extra sun. No tractor could fit anyways. This[1] is one version of agrovoltaics. The solar panels act like window blinds. They can be configured to follow the sun but also can be configured to “provide optimal shade/cooling throughout the day”. [0] https://images.app.goo.gl/mSbtJjtSQRukBQqK6 https://images.app.goo.gl/mSbtJjtSQRukBQqK6 [1] https://images.app.goo.gl/9kakPW8uRHLGp3yJA https://images.app.goo.gl/9kakPW8uRHLGp3yJA
- hutzlibu 4y ago
  "This[0] is a berry farm I was just at. As you can see it’s already covered to protect from extra sun." Erm, I can see a greenhouse. I think they are made to increase temperature for the plants and not to protect from extra sun. Strawberries like sun and would not benefit from shade, unless we are talking about very intense sunlight and not much water. Most plants usually want as much sun as they can get, so long as the temperature stays in their desired range and enough water is avaiable. So in dry places with lots of sun, acrovoltaics can make some sense, or for plants that like indeed shade, like tomatoes. But it is really not a magic bullet for growing corn and harvesting electricity at the same time. Sheeps grazing under solar panels seems like a working solution that does not need too much effort around it.
  - otherme123 4y ago
    A lot of plants doesn't like and cannot survive the sun at central hours unless you water them like crazy. Basically you are watering to avoid dehydration, but not producing, like drinking in the desert. A lot of plants evolved to thrive near/under trees. Greenhouses can tame the sunlight, and usually they are painted in white in regions of too much sun (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Rl6tMOU84tk https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Rl6tMOU84tk). Also, greenhouses are hot but very humid, so the plants doesn't dehydrate as fast. I could imagine an scheme that instead of watering (costs money) you shade the crops with panels (earns money) during the worst of the day.
    - wil421 4y ago
      I live in the hot and humid Deep South and my strawberries do not mind the sun. There’s a local berry patch that has lots of different berries, including strawberries, and no shades in sight. What’s in OPs image is a greenhouse. The sides can be closed if low temperatures are coming in at night.
  - yencabulator 4y ago
    The examples given in the article are mushrooms and broccoli. Obviously the primary and first use cases would be things that want some shade (in the local environment).

tstrimple 4y ago

Most of the examples I’ve seen are small scale hand pick farming. But there is nothing about 20’ spans that are outside our technical abilities today. This seems like a rather small obstacle to overcome. Of course this still says nothing about the economic feasibility or impacts. Thinking more about it, you wouldn’t even need 20’ spans. You’d have articulating struts coming off of a central point between the rows. Panels can be adjusted out of the way of equipment when it needs to pass through if it is interfering.

fencepost 4y ago

To some extent that falls into the category of "fiddly details." Solar panels are probably not the best choice for use alongside bulk harvested crops like corn, wheat, soybeans and even potatoes, but an awful lot of "produce" crops are harvested by hand. The reason I say "fiddly details" is because questions like "what's the best spacing between rows of panels" and "do I plant under the panels or just between rows" can be decided as people look into available equipment, land prices, crop variation and flexibility, etc.

Arnt 4y ago
I don't know about "growing crops", but a farm outside the city where I live has sheep grazing under/around solar panels.
rektide 4y ago
Heck yes. It's absurd now but... imagine those crop-water-er things, with a central pivot (ed: "central-pivot-irrigation"). What if instead of just a line of watering, that rotated around, it was a vast overhead rotating circle? Like 80% by area solar panels overhanigng. But also, one radian with all the farm stuff: watering, tiller, planter, harvester? An polar-plotter of tools, with solar panels taking up most everywhere else.
- catmanjan 4y ago
  I’m actually experimenting with building one of those- the problem is the forces involved compared to the irrigator which is basically just suspending water pipes over the ground
  - dylan604 4y ago
    maybe i'm misremembering, but I was under them impression that the water pressure drove the platform. was i totally wrong on this? i ask, as i would never have guessed adding the weight of solar panels to that would be viable without possibly using some of the generated power to drive a motor.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

detourdog 4y ago

I can tell you are no farmer. No tractor is needed in a field maintained by grazing. If tbe panels are mounted high enough sunlight will be cast on the ground for a period each day.

mminer237 4y ago
I am a farmer, and this doesn't make sense. Grazing fields aren't really growing crops. Even if this is just crops that are picked by hand (it mentions broccoli), they typically still have huge machines follow the laborers for them to deposit them in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKyxMKO2kyU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKyxMKO2kyU I can't see any good way to harvest a field with solar panels that isn't so inefficiently laid out that it would be better to have two separate fields.
- lovemenot 4y ago
  I am not a farmer, but am interested in watching the development of agricultural tech. >> I can't see any good way to harvest a field with solar panels that isn't so inefficiently laid out that it would be better to have two separate fields. Would there be scope for smaller autonomous machines? Presumably, there should be some crop configurations that could benefit, but we don't yet have all the results of experiments currently running. Here in Japan, farms are typically much smaller, so there's perhaps greater scope for agrivoltaics than in industrial scale farms in USA.
  - detourdog 4y ago
    Yes a Beowolf cluster could definitely harvest crops.
- schiffern 4y ago
  >Grazing fields aren't really growing crops. Right, they grow food for animals, which walk around the field and graze on it autonomously. Hey, I wonder if that's why they're called that... :) I'm not really sure what the point is in making this observation. Just a "farmer vs rancher" thing, or something deeper? >I can't see any good way to harvest a field with solar panels See above.

defrost 4y ago

Picture of sheep grazing under panels in Australia: Solar farm trial shows improved fleece on merino sheep grazed under panels https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2022-05-30/solar-farm-grazing-sheep-agriculture-renewable-energy-review/101097364 https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2022-05-30/solar-farm-graz... Note the room to drive between panel rows and for "boom mowers" to spread out behind a medium tractor and reach under the panels. There are also many types of vehicles used in agriculture from two storey high broad acre heavy duty combine harvesting monsters to small narrow self propelled engines that run through tree trunks in orchard with various attachments to mow (sprung mowing rings), shake trees (to make fruit fall), spray leaves, trench (for irrigation, drainage, etc). Also, see: "Agri-bots" - a revolution not yet complete in small driverless autonomous helpers to run 24/7 weeding, spraying, picking berries, using solar, etc.

schiffern 4y ago
>improved fleece on merino sheep grazed under panels Makes sense. I'm not sure the exact care instructions, but I'm pretty sure "store this garment outside unshielded in the baking sun and pouring rain for many months" isn't the official recommendation for wool. If available, sheep (and other animals) will seek cover during heavy rains and periods of high heat stress. This protects both the sheep and the wool, and both factors improve quality. I wouldn't be surprised if the diet improves as well, due to healthier grass, higher plant biodiversity, and higher abundance of (tasty and nutritious) insects. Paradoxically, primary productivity will often increase with added shade, because photosynthesis shuts down at even mildly elevated leaf temperatures (~85 °F). Those vast impressive corn fields will often overheat and shut down around 10 AM, and don't start photosynthesizing again until 4 PM. In ye olden days farmers would plant a widely-spaced grid of "farmer's trees."[0] These are a category of trees (eg black locust) which 1) provided shade and windbreak, 2) coexist with crops right up to their trunk, 3) have deep tap roots bringing up minerals and water, 4) drops fertilizing mulch, and 5) produces nutritious animal fodder (pods) which self-dry and store on the tree itself. Clever farmers! For mechanized farms you can choose a planting pattern and varieties that permit machinery to drive right past the tree without losing much area on "gores." Typical density was about 20-30 trees per hectare, so it also stores a bit of carbon. Personally I prefer trees, but ultimately we need both types of systems. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=25&v=uvQpIHBSPBE https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=25&v=uvQpIHBSPBE

photochemsyn 4y ago

Vertical bifacial panels are one approach that doesn't interfere with tractors and equipment, and still have comparable generation (with twice as many panels, so more expensive): https://www.pv-magazine.com/2023/01/24/vertical-pv-for-clean-energy-and-crop-production/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2023/01/24/vertical-pv-for-clean... > "For conventional ground-mounted systems, the scientists considered a tilt angle of 20 degrees and an average estimated energy yield 1,020 Wh/W. For the bifacial vertical west-east oriented systems, they assumed a bifaciality factor of 90% and an annual energy yield of 999 Wh/W, while for vertical systems with a north-south orientation the annual energy yield was indicated at 926 Wh/W."

pfdietz 4y ago
Vertical orientation can also make sense if you're trying to bias the PV to produce more in winter, when the output might be more valuable.

Schroedingersat 4y ago

The crops that are best suited to giant tractors also tend to be less suited to agrivoltaics. They also include energy crops, so you can go from producing no food on land with unprofitable crops that take subsidies to growing food on the land at a profit and producing energy. The land taken up by energy crops exceeds the land needed by solar by over an order of magnitude.

lost_tourist 4y ago

there's no reason to put solar panels on fertile land, there is plenty of land that can be used in other places.

pbhjpbhj 4y ago
Solar panels are already being put on fertile land (in UK), so if that land can get dual-use and not waste it's potential for food provision then that seems more optimal. That said, these threads always confirm in me a belief that we need to cut human population replacement to save the planet and our own species.