4 ms·

This is a problem not solved by the market, for many reasons, but the most important one is that they all try to do this sooner or later. Shareholder value must

This is a problem not solved by the market, for many reasons, but the most important one is that they all try to do this sooner or later. Shareholder value must increase and be found somewhere. Only government regulations can keep capitalism in check, maybe an unpopular opinion on HN but it hurts startups too because the market is not penetrable for competition.

nix23 4y ago
>Only government regulations can keep capitalism in check That's what i mean, a customer is allowed to return a device/car/whatever and get fully refunded if the initial function of a device changes with no technical advantage for the customer. Fines brings the Customer nothing (aka you don't get your money back) and is mostly small change for the company, no need to change anything...but paying full refunds for let's say a 4yo device, that could hurt allot.
- xxs 4y ago
  The onus is on the customers to realize that the has been an issue, and they would be eligible for a refund (minus inflation). Then there are shipping costs, likely the customers bought it from a local retainer, that may or may not be in business... The endless emails and phone calls. Overall the customers are not in any position of power without a forced recall.
  - nix23 4y ago
    >The onus is on the customers to realize that the has been an issue, If the customer has no issues there are no issues right? >Then there are shipping costs, likely the customers bought it from a local retainer, that may or may not be in business... Again it's an HP and you send it directly to them, the MANUFACTURER has to cover all costs. Your retailer has not made the update so he should have nothing to do with it. >The endless emails and phone calls. One email: My printer (serial-number) worked for two years with that toner, since your update it's not working anymore (error blablabla), roll back that update or send me a shipping label. >Overall the customers are not in any position of power without a forced recall. Time to change that then right? Restore the functionality of my device or take it back. You are making a problem where no are.
    - xxs 4y ago
      >If the customer has no issues there are no issues right Customers have been conditioned to blame themselves for any device/product shortcomings, and consider themselves rather unworthy. Personally I have witnessed that first hand that end users consider both hardware and software too hard to use and any misgivings would be attributed to their own faults. That extends to all kind of hardware - including hand tools.
      - nix23 4y ago
        >Customers have been conditioned to blame themselves for any device/product shortcomings, and consider themselves rather unworthy That's something no one can solve for them, never. But at least they should be capable going into a "Printer-Forum" and ask. One then will say: Get a refund or roll back the update, i have the same printer...they do that (the asking) with, for example car's all the time.
- louwrentius 4y ago
  The fact that you can return a product in the first place and get a full refund is because of regulations in the first place.
otherme123 4y ago
Some people requires market to work 100% perfect, or else government regulations. For some reason, government regulations are allowed to fail miserably (e.g. 18th amendment). The market solution doesn't have to be your desired solution. Here it seems that some people doesn't care HP practices, so market provides shitty HP practices. They have easy options (bare minimum: don't buy HP), but they actively avoid them, so the market allows and encourages it.
- louwrentius 4y ago
  The incentives of capitalism are such that unless there are very strict regulations, it degenerates in what the game of monopoly tries to convey in a visceral manner. A few people will own everything at the cost of everybody else. Because protection against monopolies is dead in USA, we see exactly this play out.
  - incrudible 4y ago
    What monopoly? You just can buy a printer with refillable ink tanks from several competitors, but also from HP. Then you pay the real price for the printer and the printer heads that need to be replaced occasionally.
  - otherme123 4y ago
    Not true, and well known as not true for ages in the economic field. The primary source of monopolies are government regulations (e.g. patents, exclusive licenses, etc). In fact the words "monopoly" and "patent" started meaning "the government will allow this and only this business to do that thing, and will prosecute whoever tries to compete". HP only have like 25% of the printer market. Realistic alternatives currently are: Brother, Epson, Kyocera, Ricoh and in some markets NEC. Anyone buying a HP today is asking for it.
    - LocalH 4y ago
      The problem with the "economic field" is largely that it treats theory and practice as fungible.
incrudible 4y ago
These printers are sold below cost so that money can be made from the ink. Naturally, this needs some form of DRM. Capitalism offers you plenty of alternatives for printing at the best cost, these printers are actually good deals for people who rarely print.
- pixelfarmer 4y ago
  Just that ink printers don't really work well for people who rarely print, compared to laser printers, for example.
  - incrudible 4y ago
    Why? The upfront cost of a laser printer is higher.
trinsic2 4y ago
When business can affect polices in there favor. Good luck with that. You can see how well Gov. regulation is working out with John Deers control over farming equipment.
- louwrentius 4y ago
  The real problem is that a certain political affiliation has opened the floodgates toward unbridled corporate meddling in politics. If coroporations can set the rule due to legal bribery (lobbying) that's a larger systemic issue that only underwrites my point. Fortunately there are other examples that show it can be done better, you may have to look for those examples either outside of the USA or in the past of the USA.
  - trinsic2 4y ago
    My point is, more gov. regulation isn't working. That is not likely to change until there is a systemic change in our system of government.
    - red-iron-pine 4y ago
      bollocks. plenty of gov regulation works in other countries. European trains run on time and don't spew chlorine gas at people.
    - louwrentius 4y ago
      your point is clearly wrong on so many levels and from so many perspectives it's just laughable.

nix23 4y ago

>Only government regulations can keep capitalism in check That's what i mean, a customer is allowed to return a device/car/whatever and get fully refunded if the initial function of a device changes with no technical advantage for the customer. Fines brings the Customer nothing (aka you don't get your money back) and is mostly small change for the company, no need to change anything...but paying full refunds for let's say a 4yo device, that could hurt allot.

xxs 4y ago
The onus is on the customers to realize that the has been an issue, and they would be eligible for a refund (minus inflation). Then there are shipping costs, likely the customers bought it from a local retainer, that may or may not be in business... The endless emails and phone calls. Overall the customers are not in any position of power without a forced recall.
- nix23 4y ago
  >The onus is on the customers to realize that the has been an issue, If the customer has no issues there are no issues right? >Then there are shipping costs, likely the customers bought it from a local retainer, that may or may not be in business... Again it's an HP and you send it directly to them, the MANUFACTURER has to cover all costs. Your retailer has not made the update so he should have nothing to do with it. >The endless emails and phone calls. One email: My printer (serial-number) worked for two years with that toner, since your update it's not working anymore (error blablabla), roll back that update or send me a shipping label. >Overall the customers are not in any position of power without a forced recall. Time to change that then right? Restore the functionality of my device or take it back. You are making a problem where no are.
  - xxs 4y ago
    >If the customer has no issues there are no issues right Customers have been conditioned to blame themselves for any device/product shortcomings, and consider themselves rather unworthy. Personally I have witnessed that first hand that end users consider both hardware and software too hard to use and any misgivings would be attributed to their own faults. That extends to all kind of hardware - including hand tools.
    - nix23 4y ago
      >Customers have been conditioned to blame themselves for any device/product shortcomings, and consider themselves rather unworthy That's something no one can solve for them, never. But at least they should be capable going into a "Printer-Forum" and ask. One then will say: Get a refund or roll back the update, i have the same printer...they do that (the asking) with, for example car's all the time.
louwrentius 4y ago
The fact that you can return a product in the first place and get a full refund is because of regulations in the first place.

otherme123 4y ago

Some people requires market to work 100% perfect, or else government regulations. For some reason, government regulations are allowed to fail miserably (e.g. 18th amendment). The market solution doesn't have to be your desired solution. Here it seems that some people doesn't care HP practices, so market provides shitty HP practices. They have easy options (bare minimum: don't buy HP), but they actively avoid them, so the market allows and encourages it.

louwrentius 4y ago
The incentives of capitalism are such that unless there are very strict regulations, it degenerates in what the game of monopoly tries to convey in a visceral manner. A few people will own everything at the cost of everybody else. Because protection against monopolies is dead in USA, we see exactly this play out.
- incrudible 4y ago
  What monopoly? You just can buy a printer with refillable ink tanks from several competitors, but also from HP. Then you pay the real price for the printer and the printer heads that need to be replaced occasionally.
- otherme123 4y ago
  Not true, and well known as not true for ages in the economic field. The primary source of monopolies are government regulations (e.g. patents, exclusive licenses, etc). In fact the words "monopoly" and "patent" started meaning "the government will allow this and only this business to do that thing, and will prosecute whoever tries to compete". HP only have like 25% of the printer market. Realistic alternatives currently are: Brother, Epson, Kyocera, Ricoh and in some markets NEC. Anyone buying a HP today is asking for it.
  - LocalH 4y ago
    The problem with the "economic field" is largely that it treats theory and practice as fungible.

incrudible 4y ago

These printers are sold below cost so that money can be made from the ink. Naturally, this needs some form of DRM. Capitalism offers you plenty of alternatives for printing at the best cost, these printers are actually good deals for people who rarely print.

pixelfarmer 4y ago
Just that ink printers don't really work well for people who rarely print, compared to laser printers, for example.
- incrudible 4y ago
  Why? The upfront cost of a laser printer is higher.

trinsic2 4y ago

When business can affect polices in there favor. Good luck with that. You can see how well Gov. regulation is working out with John Deers control over farming equipment.

louwrentius 4y ago
The real problem is that a certain political affiliation has opened the floodgates toward unbridled corporate meddling in politics. If coroporations can set the rule due to legal bribery (lobbying) that's a larger systemic issue that only underwrites my point. Fortunately there are other examples that show it can be done better, you may have to look for those examples either outside of the USA or in the past of the USA.
- trinsic2 4y ago
  My point is, more gov. regulation isn't working. That is not likely to change until there is a systemic change in our system of government.
  - red-iron-pine 4y ago
    bollocks. plenty of gov regulation works in other countries. European trains run on time and don't spew chlorine gas at people.
  - louwrentius 4y ago
    your point is clearly wrong on so many levels and from so many perspectives it's just laughable.