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What prevented you from helping him? edit: This comes off as a rhetorical question. I'm really just interested what happened here. The project was assigned to

What prevented you from helping him? edit: This comes off as a rhetorical question. I'm really just interested what happened here. The project was assigned to both of you. I imagine that implies some responsibility for the whole of the project. You spent your "free" time learning React. Was there an organisational blocker that prevented you from helping him out, in any capacity?

coldtea 4y ago
That his expertise (and desired field) is a totally different layer?
- anileated 4y ago
  Their expertise was not in React either, yet somehow it didn’t prevent them from using it on this project. Turns out in this field we can learn quickly and don’t have to be razor sharp focused in what we are able to do. A somewhat charitable explanation could be some internal politics which in large organizations are always baffling to me.
  - coldtea 4y ago
    >Their expertise was not in React either, yet somehow it didn’t prevent them from using it on this project. Yes, because React is still front-end. He expanded his front-end skills with a new front-end skill. Sounds like job functon, role, and area of experise don't matter, and everybody should do anything in your mind ("they're programmers, so whether they do front-end, server side, or program embedded software for artificial hearts, they should just jump to it and like it too"). >Turns out in this field we can learn quickly and don’t have to be razor sharp focused in what we are able to do. Turns out people have specific preferences for the areas they like to work at, and have specific job functions they were hired for (say, "front-end engineer" or "data scientist") and whether they can learn another kind of role is moot. They might if they want to, or if they have to because they need the money. But it's a totally disfunctional organization one that has them do something they weren't hired too, just because "it's all programming, surely you can learn it". If you hire a systems programmer you shouldn't expect them to do UI or data science, just because your company didn't bother to have someone else for that. If you do have that need, ask for a "fullstack" engineer, or be upfront that you want people to wear many hats. Programmers are not just "do whatever/replacable cogs" they have specific preferences, skills and expertise, and career goals. Actually that's true for any profession, not just programmers.
    - anileated 4y ago
      Well, in extraordinary circumstances it may be warranted… Help out a colleague, then both leave ASAP on good terms after victorious delivery.
  - lowercased 4y ago
    > Turns out in this field we can learn quickly and don’t have to be razor sharp focused in what we are able to do. Turns out this is how many orgs end up with mountains of half-baked copy/paste that sorta works-because-it-didn't-break-yesterday, written by people that have jumped ship to the next shiny-tech-of-the-month company and never have to suffer the consequences of their "quickly-learned non-razor-sharp-focused" actions.
- theteapot 4y ago
  > ... a Dilbert-level hapless manager was assigning me and a coworker to a fullstack project. Oh so it was actually halfstack project.
  - coldtea 4y ago
    It was a fullstack project with someone doing the front-end and someone doing the backend. It wasn't a project given to two "fullstack engineers" which is a different thing than a "fullstack project" (which just means project involving all stack layers). So the sarcasm falls flat.
    - theteapot 4y ago
      Oh a half-half-stack project. My bad.
      - coldtea 4y ago
        There's always Reddit for such stimulating intellectual discourse
        theteapot 4y ago
        Hardly qualifies as discourse.
        coldtea 4y ago
        My point precisely
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
b112 4y ago
What prevented you from helping him? Guy already said, manager wouldn't assign other work. I have worked in similar. Some workplaces are highly political. In one case I was on contract, 3 months ahead, suggested to help in other areas, and even offered to "pause billing" and take personal time off. Yes, the contract allowed for it. Nope. Needed me there every day, doing nothing. Otherwise, upper management would know the project was slipping?! Some workplaces are highly broken.
franciscop 4y ago
The backend was in Go, a language that I have no idea about. Also this was in Japan and backend discussions and 3rd party vendors all happened in Japanese, which I also didn't speak. I suggested learning Go myself and try to help, but my manager was also against it. I was dubious I'd be of much help when I suggested but at least I'd learn the language we were using and might be able to help long-term. But as things kept getting delayed I'm sure I'd have been able to learn enough to be of help even within that project. But again, had a hard ban to either join a different project or learn/help with Go, "just keep improving the front-end and integrate it with the backend and don't do anything else until that's done".
- scary-size 4y ago
  Thanks for the additional context. In your initial post it came across like you sat and watched the project burn.
  - franciscop 4y ago
    Sorry for my bad explanation/coming off as that, since it's definitely the opposite. I actually left the company because of the stress of wanting to help and not being able to help. Going everyday seeing how the project was going into the ground and being told I couldn't help and to just sit there destroyed my soul.
- IshKebab 4y ago
  Your manager sounds like a complete tool. Go is easier to learn than React IMO. Japanese not so much, but it sounds like you could have at least helped with the implementation without speaking it.
- Aloha 4y ago
  Working with Japanese engineers without either speaking Japanese or being sufficiently acultured to Japanese cultural norms was an interesting experience for me. Brilliant fellows, with a very different way of thinking about issues. Often however the solution was dictated by things outside of the engineering problem at hand.

coldtea 4y ago

That his expertise (and desired field) is a totally different layer?

anileated 4y ago
Their expertise was not in React either, yet somehow it didn’t prevent them from using it on this project. Turns out in this field we can learn quickly and don’t have to be razor sharp focused in what we are able to do. A somewhat charitable explanation could be some internal politics which in large organizations are always baffling to me.
- coldtea 4y ago
  >Their expertise was not in React either, yet somehow it didn’t prevent them from using it on this project. Yes, because React is still front-end. He expanded his front-end skills with a new front-end skill. Sounds like job functon, role, and area of experise don't matter, and everybody should do anything in your mind ("they're programmers, so whether they do front-end, server side, or program embedded software for artificial hearts, they should just jump to it and like it too"). >Turns out in this field we can learn quickly and don’t have to be razor sharp focused in what we are able to do. Turns out people have specific preferences for the areas they like to work at, and have specific job functions they were hired for (say, "front-end engineer" or "data scientist") and whether they can learn another kind of role is moot. They might if they want to, or if they have to because they need the money. But it's a totally disfunctional organization one that has them do something they weren't hired too, just because "it's all programming, surely you can learn it". If you hire a systems programmer you shouldn't expect them to do UI or data science, just because your company didn't bother to have someone else for that. If you do have that need, ask for a "fullstack" engineer, or be upfront that you want people to wear many hats. Programmers are not just "do whatever/replacable cogs" they have specific preferences, skills and expertise, and career goals. Actually that's true for any profession, not just programmers.
  - anileated 4y ago
    Well, in extraordinary circumstances it may be warranted… Help out a colleague, then both leave ASAP on good terms after victorious delivery.
- lowercased 4y ago
  > Turns out in this field we can learn quickly and don’t have to be razor sharp focused in what we are able to do. Turns out this is how many orgs end up with mountains of half-baked copy/paste that sorta works-because-it-didn't-break-yesterday, written by people that have jumped ship to the next shiny-tech-of-the-month company and never have to suffer the consequences of their "quickly-learned non-razor-sharp-focused" actions.
theteapot 4y ago
> ... a Dilbert-level hapless manager was assigning me and a coworker to a fullstack project. Oh so it was actually halfstack project.
- coldtea 4y ago
  It was a fullstack project with someone doing the front-end and someone doing the backend. It wasn't a project given to two "fullstack engineers" which is a different thing than a "fullstack project" (which just means project involving all stack layers). So the sarcasm falls flat.
  - theteapot 4y ago
    Oh a half-half-stack project. My bad.
    - coldtea 4y ago
      There's always Reddit for such stimulating intellectual discourse
      - theteapot 4y ago
        Hardly qualifies as discourse.
        coldtea 4y ago
        My point precisely
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]

b112 4y ago

What prevented you from helping him? Guy already said, manager wouldn't assign other work. I have worked in similar. Some workplaces are highly political. In one case I was on contract, 3 months ahead, suggested to help in other areas, and even offered to "pause billing" and take personal time off. Yes, the contract allowed for it. Nope. Needed me there every day, doing nothing. Otherwise, upper management would know the project was slipping?! Some workplaces are highly broken.

franciscop 4y ago

The backend was in Go, a language that I have no idea about. Also this was in Japan and backend discussions and 3rd party vendors all happened in Japanese, which I also didn't speak. I suggested learning Go myself and try to help, but my manager was also against it. I was dubious I'd be of much help when I suggested but at least I'd learn the language we were using and might be able to help long-term. But as things kept getting delayed I'm sure I'd have been able to learn enough to be of help even within that project. But again, had a hard ban to either join a different project or learn/help with Go, "just keep improving the front-end and integrate it with the backend and don't do anything else until that's done".

scary-size 4y ago
Thanks for the additional context. In your initial post it came across like you sat and watched the project burn.
- franciscop 4y ago
  Sorry for my bad explanation/coming off as that, since it's definitely the opposite. I actually left the company because of the stress of wanting to help and not being able to help. Going everyday seeing how the project was going into the ground and being told I couldn't help and to just sit there destroyed my soul.
IshKebab 4y ago
Your manager sounds like a complete tool. Go is easier to learn than React IMO. Japanese not so much, but it sounds like you could have at least helped with the implementation without speaking it.
Aloha 4y ago
Working with Japanese engineers without either speaking Japanese or being sufficiently acultured to Japanese cultural norms was an interesting experience for me. Brilliant fellows, with a very different way of thinking about issues. Often however the solution was dictated by things outside of the engineering problem at hand.