13 ms·

Why would I commute (and in doing so lose 2 hours of my time per day)? Focusing in the office is next to impossible, the equipment is sub-par (I have a 3-monito

by dt3ft 4y ago

Why would I commute (and in doing so lose 2 hours of my time per day)? Focusing in the office is next to impossible, the equipment is sub-par (I have a 3-monitor setup at home)? What is it about software engineering that requires physical presence? Currently we meet once a week in the office and I get almost no work done that day, and I’m not the only one.

thejackgoode 4y ago
I do mostly remote work, but there’s advantages to physical presence. First, offline is a more rich channel for communication. Blunt analogy is an audio vs video meeting. It’s easier to explain and understand people. If you have a lot of uncertainty and things changing fast, you want this. Secondly, it brings people together. I myself found this argument BS, but I found out it really depends on the team. I am looking forward to the interactions I am having in the office now. So, to each their own. Most importantly IMO is that teams can have freedom to decide what works best for them.
- denvrede 4y ago
  It depends not only on the own team but also the other teams you collaborate with or provide service for. We're a small "DevOps" team that provides all kind of services but we figured out that people in our company (it's a small startup) just don't come to us virtually if they need something or want a second opinion. So we said we'll come into office once a week on a specific day and that day they can approach us with everything. Of course it hasn't changed behavior of everyone but that day we have more interactions with all kind of colleagues than the rest of the remote days combined.
andersa 4y ago
I never understood why anyone would spend hours traveling each day just so they can sit in front of a computer in another place for a while and go back home. Glad the world has caught up with this being complete nonsense!
- FooBarWidget 4y ago
  Some people don't have a home office, or even a basic desk + chair setup that's suitable for long hours of computer work. A colleague of mine prefers going to the office because at home he's constantly distracted by kids. Another has literally injured himself due working from his kitchen in a bad position for a year. It's worse than RSI. He had to rehabilitate for half a year just to get back to 95% health, and even now whenever he concentrates for too long the pain comes back. One might say, "well they should arrange a suitable setup then". Not everyone has a home that's large enough. Besides, my experience is that most people don't have the discipline or will to do this properly, and as an employer you have to more or less force this upon employees (not even "recommend" is good enough). In the Netherlands, if employees — even office employees — injure themselves, then the employer is obliged to take care of them for max 2 years, even if the injury was not directly caused by the employer.
  - andersa 4y ago
    The home office equipment can be bought from the higher salaries the companies are able to provide now that they don't need to waste as much money on office rent. Of course, getting a good chair is just as important as it used to be!
  - prmoustache 4y ago
    > A colleague of mine prefers going to the office because at home he's constantly distracted by kids. Why aren't they at school?
    - FooBarWidget 4y ago
      School is until 14.30. And they have many holidays.
  - UweSchmidt 4y ago
    Depending on circumstances, what you save on commuting could allow you to upgrade your living with an extra room. Commuting costs are easily underestimated but a honest look might reveal that they are substantial: https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/06/the-true-cost-of-commuting/ https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/06/the-true-cost-of-...
dustedcodes 4y ago
Once a week is a lot, that’s hybrid and not remote. The thing is if someone “forces” you into an office once a week then it’s not for team collaboration but for control. They want to control that you are never going to travel too far from the office away. Organisations who care about collaboration and team bonding would say you should meet when the team decides it’s right for them. Throw in some budget so the teams can go for a nice lunch together when it happens, maybe have some for drinks after or let them plan an activity. But let the team decide when that time is, after all they will know best when a natural moment takes place where getting together will be good. It could be once a month, once every 6 weeks or sometimes once every two weeks.
pmoriarty 4y ago
"Why would I commute (and in doing so lose 2 hours of my time per day)?" Working remotely has really made me think hard about the enormous part of my life that I've wasted commuting. Never again!
- jay_kyburz 4y ago
  When you hire a plumber to come and fix your sink, they charge a call out fee to cover the time to drive to you place and look at the job. I think in future people will clock on as soon as they walk out the door at 9, and not clock off till they get home again at 5.
  - re-thc 4y ago
    It's always been a part of the cost - maybe implicitly.
  - spyke112 4y ago
    I'm working as a freelance developer in Denmark, this is my reality. I live about 30-40 minutes away from my current customer, and every time I go there I will charge the time spent. My company can also pay me a tax free "bonus" for every kilometre driven, because I use my own private car.
__oh_es 4y ago
I like the work/home divide. I like the in person interactions. I like being able to walk and meet with other departments and dig into what really needs doing. Pairing is easier and the work I do feels more effective. I do appreciate flexibility in my role and being able to work wherever I want whenever I want. But for 70-80% of the time, I prefer the office and considering the full office, Im not alone. I feel that software engineering isn’t a one size fits all and its up to you to chase the work environment you enjoy the most.
citrin_ru 4y ago
I personally would prefer to working remotely (at least 4 days a week) unless my commute is less than 15-20 minutes but executives put significant value in seeing people working from the office. If they'll decide to save (offices are not cheap) and hire a remote developer what would stop from hiring around the world? Developer salaries in developed countries (and especially the US) are much higher than world average. Working from office you compete with candidates in the same city or in the same country if willing to relocate. Working remotely one have to compete with the whole world.
- prmoustache 4y ago
  Well maybe it can help the world be a better place by levelling income and costs of living accross all borders.
- devnullbrain 4y ago
  If my high salary depends on artificial barriers to workers in poorer countries, it's not sustainable anyway.
- stodor89 4y ago
  Same culture makes communication way easier, and the main problem in most teams is actually communication.
izacus 4y ago
Doing a mental/empathy exercise to think about all the reasons why people would want to do that is an important practice for your career growth and building great software products for people that aren't like you.
devnullbrain 4y ago
>the equipment is sub-par (I have a 3-monitor setup at home)? This is a funny reality. Even the profligate employers of software developers are reluctant to spend money on a monitor setup as nice as what I had at home at the entry level. ...except, of course, I paid for it - plus sales tax - with the money they gave me - net of income tax.

by dt3ft 4y ago

thejackgoode 4y ago

I do mostly remote work, but there’s advantages to physical presence. First, offline is a more rich channel for communication. Blunt analogy is an audio vs video meeting. It’s easier to explain and understand people. If you have a lot of uncertainty and things changing fast, you want this. Secondly, it brings people together. I myself found this argument BS, but I found out it really depends on the team. I am looking forward to the interactions I am having in the office now. So, to each their own. Most importantly IMO is that teams can have freedom to decide what works best for them.

denvrede 4y ago
It depends not only on the own team but also the other teams you collaborate with or provide service for. We're a small "DevOps" team that provides all kind of services but we figured out that people in our company (it's a small startup) just don't come to us virtually if they need something or want a second opinion. So we said we'll come into office once a week on a specific day and that day they can approach us with everything. Of course it hasn't changed behavior of everyone but that day we have more interactions with all kind of colleagues than the rest of the remote days combined.

andersa 4y ago

I never understood why anyone would spend hours traveling each day just so they can sit in front of a computer in another place for a while and go back home. Glad the world has caught up with this being complete nonsense!

FooBarWidget 4y ago
Some people don't have a home office, or even a basic desk + chair setup that's suitable for long hours of computer work. A colleague of mine prefers going to the office because at home he's constantly distracted by kids. Another has literally injured himself due working from his kitchen in a bad position for a year. It's worse than RSI. He had to rehabilitate for half a year just to get back to 95% health, and even now whenever he concentrates for too long the pain comes back. One might say, "well they should arrange a suitable setup then". Not everyone has a home that's large enough. Besides, my experience is that most people don't have the discipline or will to do this properly, and as an employer you have to more or less force this upon employees (not even "recommend" is good enough). In the Netherlands, if employees — even office employees — injure themselves, then the employer is obliged to take care of them for max 2 years, even if the injury was not directly caused by the employer.
- andersa 4y ago
  The home office equipment can be bought from the higher salaries the companies are able to provide now that they don't need to waste as much money on office rent. Of course, getting a good chair is just as important as it used to be!
- prmoustache 4y ago
  > A colleague of mine prefers going to the office because at home he's constantly distracted by kids. Why aren't they at school?
  - FooBarWidget 4y ago
    School is until 14.30. And they have many holidays.
- UweSchmidt 4y ago
  Depending on circumstances, what you save on commuting could allow you to upgrade your living with an extra room. Commuting costs are easily underestimated but a honest look might reveal that they are substantial: https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/06/the-true-cost-of-commuting/ https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/06/the-true-cost-of-...

dustedcodes 4y ago

Once a week is a lot, that’s hybrid and not remote. The thing is if someone “forces” you into an office once a week then it’s not for team collaboration but for control. They want to control that you are never going to travel too far from the office away. Organisations who care about collaboration and team bonding would say you should meet when the team decides it’s right for them. Throw in some budget so the teams can go for a nice lunch together when it happens, maybe have some for drinks after or let them plan an activity. But let the team decide when that time is, after all they will know best when a natural moment takes place where getting together will be good. It could be once a month, once every 6 weeks or sometimes once every two weeks.

pmoriarty 4y ago

"Why would I commute (and in doing so lose 2 hours of my time per day)?" Working remotely has really made me think hard about the enormous part of my life that I've wasted commuting. Never again!

jay_kyburz 4y ago
When you hire a plumber to come and fix your sink, they charge a call out fee to cover the time to drive to you place and look at the job. I think in future people will clock on as soon as they walk out the door at 9, and not clock off till they get home again at 5.
- re-thc 4y ago
  It's always been a part of the cost - maybe implicitly.
- spyke112 4y ago
  I'm working as a freelance developer in Denmark, this is my reality. I live about 30-40 minutes away from my current customer, and every time I go there I will charge the time spent. My company can also pay me a tax free "bonus" for every kilometre driven, because I use my own private car.

__oh_es 4y ago

I like the work/home divide. I like the in person interactions. I like being able to walk and meet with other departments and dig into what really needs doing. Pairing is easier and the work I do feels more effective. I do appreciate flexibility in my role and being able to work wherever I want whenever I want. But for 70-80% of the time, I prefer the office and considering the full office, Im not alone. I feel that software engineering isn’t a one size fits all and its up to you to chase the work environment you enjoy the most.

citrin_ru 4y ago

I personally would prefer to working remotely (at least 4 days a week) unless my commute is less than 15-20 minutes but executives put significant value in seeing people working from the office. If they'll decide to save (offices are not cheap) and hire a remote developer what would stop from hiring around the world? Developer salaries in developed countries (and especially the US) are much higher than world average. Working from office you compete with candidates in the same city or in the same country if willing to relocate. Working remotely one have to compete with the whole world.

prmoustache 4y ago
Well maybe it can help the world be a better place by levelling income and costs of living accross all borders.
devnullbrain 4y ago
If my high salary depends on artificial barriers to workers in poorer countries, it's not sustainable anyway.
stodor89 4y ago
Same culture makes communication way easier, and the main problem in most teams is actually communication.

izacus 4y ago

Doing a mental/empathy exercise to think about all the reasons why people would want to do that is an important practice for your career growth and building great software products for people that aren't like you.

devnullbrain 4y ago

>the equipment is sub-par (I have a 3-monitor setup at home)? This is a funny reality. Even the profligate employers of software developers are reluctant to spend money on a monitor setup as nice as what I had at home at the entry level. ...except, of course, I paid for it - plus sales tax - with the money they gave me - net of income tax.