6 ms·

I don't really care much what others do but I am interested in the "why" of it. I have an SUV. Last week we had to ford a 20' wide, 3' deep creek. If I had the

by pard68 4y ago

I don't really care much what others do but I am interested in the "why" of it. I have an SUV. Last week we had to ford a 20' wide, 3' deep creek. If I had the alternative (minivan) we wouldn't have been able to pull that off, which would mean not getting home. I also haul 10,000lbs of livestock on a regular basis. I usually use my truck, but a truck can't carry my kids, so when we go horseback riding I take the Suburban. Can't figure out why folks in Suburbia with one or two kids would choose an SUV. I much prefer my Subaru, but it's mostly relegated to date nights at this point in my life.

beardog 4y ago
>Can't figure out why folks in Suburbia with one or two kids would choose an SUV. I much prefer my Subaru, but it's mostly relegated to date nights at this point in my life. Station wagons and minivans are being shelved by auto-manufacturers because environmental and safety regulations have a blind spot for "light trucks" which SUVs fall under. The solution to this problem is to either tighten the regulations around SUVs or loosen the regulations around cars.
kitsunesoba 4y ago
I think that SUV appeal to residents of suburbia has its roots in two things: - Perceived safety (the idea that e.g. a Suburban would fare better in a wreck involving a full size truck than a sedan, hatchback, etc) - Keeping up with the Jonses gone vehicular. A gigantic SUV sitting out front looks impressive similar to the way a truck would while being better suited for residential usage than a truck. All it takes is one residence buying one for the rest of the block to suddenly not be satisfied with the Accord in their garage. Personally I’m a bit frustrated with how huge cars have gotten. My house was built in 2005, with a garage made to fit the cars at the time, and with ~177” of usable length (some space is taken up by HVAC + water heater), a lot of modern cars won’t fit in it and even fewer fit comfortably (e.g. being able to open its back hatch while the garage door is closed). I’m looking to lease an EV some time in the next year or so and only a tiny handful can be considered due to this.
- notacoward 4y ago
  > Keeping up with the Jonses [sic] I think it's even more toxic than that: it's an arms race. I have known people who have told me in so many words that they bought SUVs primarily so they could see around/over all the other SUVs already out there. Though they didn't say so, I'd guess they also feel like their odds of survival in a crash with one of those other SUVs when they're in one themselves vs. being in a regular car. (Maybe that's what you were getting at with your "perceived safety" point but "full size truck" is ambiguous.) Many people buy SUVs out of fear or its cousin insecurity, not because of any practical value it has over a sedan etc. In fact, just about every SUV owner I've known complains about terrible mileage, sometimes about difficulty getting in/out or poor ride characteristics as well. They feel they have to make those tradeoffs, mostly because others already did.
- NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
  >Personally I’m a bit frustrated with how huge cars have gotten. My house was built in 2005, with a garage made to fit the cars at the time, and with ~177” of usable length Hmm, even in 2005 that was small. The 2006 model year BMW 3-series, which would've been the one on the market in the year your home was built, was ~178" long, and the 3-series has always been considered a relatively compact sports sedan. You would've had no chance of fitting the contemporary Honda Accord, and even some of the Civic models would've been an incredibly tight squeeze. So I somewhat dispute the assertion that your garage was made to fit the cars of the time; it was small even then.
  - ben7799 4y ago
    The 3 series had already been supersized by 2006. They were compact and then they started going back for a 2nd helping. There was a period where the 3-series gained about 1000lb of curb weight. A 3-series today is more like the size and weight of a 5-series from the 1990s.
    - NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
      Even the E46 series BMW 3-Series would have barely fit (like 0.5" to spare) into that garage; and that was introduced for the 1998 model year with development work starting in 1993. A 1989 Honda Accord would not fit in that garage. It's a small garage.
saiya-jin 4y ago
Your usage is definitely a minority, most people drive SUV (and I've made numerous polls in various communities since it pissed me to no end to see all those big cars, polls had always same result) because of cargo culting (footballers or other 'celebrities' are using it so I will do so too) or, to put it politely 'not very good drivers', who need higher seating position to feel to be actually aware of their surroundings enough to feel safe on roads. There is a small other group, lets say physically impaired for whatever reason, for whose SUVs are another proper justifiable use case like yours, because they would be unable to get into ie bmw 5 series wagon as I've experienced with some obese people in my extended family, the whole car sits just too low. Also, at least in Europe, SUV is such a vast spectrum from borderline crossovers cars that are just worst from both worlds (sport / utility ride scale) and would struggle badly in any off-road terrain, to proper Utility vehicles that allow you to go to hell and back. That being said, I don't get the topic that much, it has trivial solution already implemented in many places - car tax. Based on weight, power, CO2 output or some combination of them. Switzerland, at least western cantons, have each their own formula so when I moved around I paid differently. State can ie plant trees from those money collected (at least thats my wishful thinking, in reality its never so straightforward)
nluken 4y ago
> Can't figure out why folks in Suburbia with one or two kids would choose an SUV It’s a mixture of status and an erroneous belief that people are going to be performing the tasks that necessitate an SUV more often than they actually will. Many also have a preference for sitting high (because it makes them feel powerful maybe?) and think SUVs are safer (which they are for their occupants, but to the detriment of everyone else on the road). But mostly status. Minivans and estate cars aren’t “cool” in the US so people won’t consider them despite the fact that they frequently serve drivers' use cases better in non-rural areas.
- NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
  I think there are at least two practical factors: people think vehicles with larger mass will be safer in case of an accident; and the higher seating position helps with visibility. Of course, in both cases, this is an arms race; but it's not irrational.
- orwin 4y ago
  SUV are actually more deadly than regular cars even for the people inside. Unless you crash on a lighter vehicle, you're more likely to die, and especially if the SUV turns over. So advice for all SUV drivers (I know you already do that and don't need it, but just in case) : it's better to crash in the vehicle ahead of you than to swerve to avoid it.
  - za3faran 4y ago
    Do you have a citation for your last claim? SUVs (and cars in general) have been getting safer over time, including electronic stability controls.
    - orwin 4y ago
      Correlation between road death increase and car sales increase only. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in... The US is the only country to have this increase in the last ten years. But also, this is real advice: If you have the choice between risking a rollover and crashing in another vehicle, as a SUV driver, crash in the other vehicle. You might kill someone, but at least you'll be safe (and i know this is the primary factor in buying high-clearance SUVs).
sschueller 4y ago
Many SUVs aren't even made to go off-road. Even the mighty Electric Hummer was just recalled because it's not water tight enough[1] [1] https://www.thestreet.com/investing/gmc-hummer-ev-recalled-over-battery-problem https://www.thestreet.com/investing/gmc-hummer-ev-recalled-o...
- causi 4y ago
  SUVs have gone from being vehicles for outdoors people to vehicles for people who really need a minivan but are afraid of not looking cool.
  - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
    I.e. continuously refining the product to cater to their core customers as their customer base shifts.
    - causi 4y ago
      A rational business decision but you're still dumb to cut your steak with a cleaver because it was the biggest coolest knife in the drawer.
- pard68 4y ago
  That's true, it's part of why I won't buy new vehicles. My Suburban is from 2003 and is definitely off-road worthy.
notacoward 4y ago
> Last week we had to ford a 20' wide, 3' deep creek. Then you're in a tiny minority of SUV owners, most of whom drive SUVs that can't handle that scenario and most of those never see anything but paved roads. > I also haul 10,000lbs of livestock on a regular basis. An even rarer need. If you feel you need an SUV, fine. Some people need other kinds of assistive devices too. But the point here is that there are millions of SUVs out there that are actually less practical for their owners' usage patterns than other kinds of vehicles, with harmful effects on both pedestrian safety and the environment. Focusing on the exceptions is distraction at best.
- waboremo 4y ago
  I believe you got defensive when the above comment was just proclaiming that they have specific uses for the larger vehicles, whereas the average suburbian person does not. So he's already doing what you advise, not attempting to "focus on the exceptions".
  - notacoward 4y ago
    How can I be "defensive" when there's no attack? And why even bring up an obvious exception except to shift focus? Please stop tossing out conversation-stoppers regardless of applicability, and try to engage constructively.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      Someone asked why people want SUVs and someone gave their personal experience and rationale. hardly seems like an conspiracy to the shift focus.
- Bloating 4y ago
  While I agree there are unnecessary SUVs, the practical use of SUV is not as rare as a city dweller realizes. What annoys me: 1) jacked up trucks with not a speck of dirt 2) people with a narrow view of society and the contexts of other people's lives, assuming everyone should live how they live. Too many people have utopian views based on their narrow experiences. Not everything is or can be within walking distance. People have various abilities, but most all need to be mobile. Owning multiple, specialized cars for various occasions isn't necessarily the most economic or practical option. There aren't enough mom and pops and doctors to serve all needs within a reasonable distance.
macinjosh 4y ago
My reasons: 1. It still snows and ices in suburbia, and suburbia isn't always flat. So while not fjording a creek AWD and higher clearances are useful. 2. Long road trips are not doable in a cramped sedan for a family of four. 3. SUVs are popular so it is easy to find one and it is easy to sell one when you need to. Only a handful of car companies still sell a minivan today. 4. Cargo area balance with passenger area 5. Occasional towing 6. Car seats have become so large that they often do not fit safely in a backseat of a sedan or hatchback. All in all SUVs are incredibly well balanced vehicles for the average family needs.
- adrr 4y ago
  What about crossover which is just a hatchback sedan with a higher lift?
  - macinjosh 4y ago
    See #2 and #6
    - NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
      The current generation Toyota RAV4 has more rear legroom, and (if you trust cars.com's review on these matters) fits contemporary child-seats better, than a BMW 5-series sedan. Packaging matters.
      - s1artibartfast 4y ago
        The Toyota RAV4 is a SUV
        NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
        You say potato, I say: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35082527 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35082527
        adrr 4y ago
sokoloff 4y ago
> Can't figure out why folks in Suburbia with one or two kids would choose an SUV. We chose an SUV for two fairly simple reasons: we live in a snowy area and buy used vehicles; therefore, we select from among whatever the distribution of all-wheel drive, four-door vehicles sold new 5-10 years ago was and aren't beat to hell now. If those new vehicle buyers picked mostly SUVs, then we're picking mostly from among SUVs.
- pard68 4y ago
  I get this. I only ever buy used and never buy newer than '05. You are relegated to what was popular 20 years ago.
scottyah 4y ago
They're a lot easier to get in and out of for the elderly, I prefer the more engaged upwards sitting position vs having to basically lay down in sedans, they can carry all the couches, tables, firepits and coolers you need easily. I don't understand why anyone would want a sedan, might as well be a bike ride or a phone call.
harimau777 4y ago
For me the two main factors in purchasing an SUV where cargo space and safety.
nineplay 4y ago
Perhaps it's specific to my area of suburbia but a) road trips are by far the most common way to take vacations and b) many of those road-trips have portions going over snow or sand or mountain backroads. So you want some sort of all or 4 wheel drive and you need a lot of cargo space. There's tents and bikes and hiking or skiing or climbing equipment. It's possible to brainstorm about other solutions but none are perfect. Years ago we tried to rent a 4x4 for a desert trip and it was a nightmare. We got there, they didn't have any 4x4s, they ended up sending us to another location, and of course you have to sign a dozen waivers that promise to pay huge amounts of money for any scratch or dent.
- orwin 4y ago
  I guarantee you that unless you are an excellent driver, you'll fare way better in the snow with a normal sized car or even a minivan than with a 4x4. Especially if you are not used to snow. And you can sleep quite comfortably in a minivan.
  - nineplay 4y ago
    My experience in snow differs from yours. If that makes me an excellent driver in your eyes then I appreciate the complement. I've slept in a minivan many times and it's wonderful for 2. 3 or more, not so much.
    - mrguyorama 4y ago
      Okay then take it from me who has been driving in several feet of snow forever: Your technique matters a billion times more than your car, and tires are even more important than that up to a point. My Dodge Neon had no problem in $30 tires on literal ice because it's like 1500 pounds soaking wet. All these idiots get a giant 4x4 "for the snow" and then still drive with a damn lead foot in the winter, and all wheel drive does nothing to improve your breaking performance, which will be worse in a heavier vehicle. It's pure stupidity, from people who always want an easy solution with no effort instead of the actual solution, which is to just drive gentler.
fwungy 4y ago
The HN crowd is divided into urban tech progressives who use Climate Change as a sort of religious proxy to organize their beliefs around, and gun owning, truck driving libertarians, with the former a slight majority.

by pard68 4y ago

beardog 4y ago

>Can't figure out why folks in Suburbia with one or two kids would choose an SUV. I much prefer my Subaru, but it's mostly relegated to date nights at this point in my life. Station wagons and minivans are being shelved by auto-manufacturers because environmental and safety regulations have a blind spot for "light trucks" which SUVs fall under. The solution to this problem is to either tighten the regulations around SUVs or loosen the regulations around cars.

kitsunesoba 4y ago

I think that SUV appeal to residents of suburbia has its roots in two things: - Perceived safety (the idea that e.g. a Suburban would fare better in a wreck involving a full size truck than a sedan, hatchback, etc) - Keeping up with the Jonses gone vehicular. A gigantic SUV sitting out front looks impressive similar to the way a truck would while being better suited for residential usage than a truck. All it takes is one residence buying one for the rest of the block to suddenly not be satisfied with the Accord in their garage. Personally I’m a bit frustrated with how huge cars have gotten. My house was built in 2005, with a garage made to fit the cars at the time, and with ~177” of usable length (some space is taken up by HVAC + water heater), a lot of modern cars won’t fit in it and even fewer fit comfortably (e.g. being able to open its back hatch while the garage door is closed). I’m looking to lease an EV some time in the next year or so and only a tiny handful can be considered due to this.

notacoward 4y ago
> Keeping up with the Jonses [sic] I think it's even more toxic than that: it's an arms race. I have known people who have told me in so many words that they bought SUVs primarily so they could see around/over all the other SUVs already out there. Though they didn't say so, I'd guess they also feel like their odds of survival in a crash with one of those other SUVs when they're in one themselves vs. being in a regular car. (Maybe that's what you were getting at with your "perceived safety" point but "full size truck" is ambiguous.) Many people buy SUVs out of fear or its cousin insecurity, not because of any practical value it has over a sedan etc. In fact, just about every SUV owner I've known complains about terrible mileage, sometimes about difficulty getting in/out or poor ride characteristics as well. They feel they have to make those tradeoffs, mostly because others already did.
NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
>Personally I’m a bit frustrated with how huge cars have gotten. My house was built in 2005, with a garage made to fit the cars at the time, and with ~177” of usable length Hmm, even in 2005 that was small. The 2006 model year BMW 3-series, which would've been the one on the market in the year your home was built, was ~178" long, and the 3-series has always been considered a relatively compact sports sedan. You would've had no chance of fitting the contemporary Honda Accord, and even some of the Civic models would've been an incredibly tight squeeze. So I somewhat dispute the assertion that your garage was made to fit the cars of the time; it was small even then.
- ben7799 4y ago
  The 3 series had already been supersized by 2006. They were compact and then they started going back for a 2nd helping. There was a period where the 3-series gained about 1000lb of curb weight. A 3-series today is more like the size and weight of a 5-series from the 1990s.
  - NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
    Even the E46 series BMW 3-Series would have barely fit (like 0.5" to spare) into that garage; and that was introduced for the 1998 model year with development work starting in 1993. A 1989 Honda Accord would not fit in that garage. It's a small garage.

saiya-jin 4y ago

Your usage is definitely a minority, most people drive SUV (and I've made numerous polls in various communities since it pissed me to no end to see all those big cars, polls had always same result) because of cargo culting (footballers or other 'celebrities' are using it so I will do so too) or, to put it politely 'not very good drivers', who need higher seating position to feel to be actually aware of their surroundings enough to feel safe on roads. There is a small other group, lets say physically impaired for whatever reason, for whose SUVs are another proper justifiable use case like yours, because they would be unable to get into ie bmw 5 series wagon as I've experienced with some obese people in my extended family, the whole car sits just too low. Also, at least in Europe, SUV is such a vast spectrum from borderline crossovers cars that are just worst from both worlds (sport / utility ride scale) and would struggle badly in any off-road terrain, to proper Utility vehicles that allow you to go to hell and back. That being said, I don't get the topic that much, it has trivial solution already implemented in many places - car tax. Based on weight, power, CO2 output or some combination of them. Switzerland, at least western cantons, have each their own formula so when I moved around I paid differently. State can ie plant trees from those money collected (at least thats my wishful thinking, in reality its never so straightforward)

nluken 4y ago

> Can't figure out why folks in Suburbia with one or two kids would choose an SUV It’s a mixture of status and an erroneous belief that people are going to be performing the tasks that necessitate an SUV more often than they actually will. Many also have a preference for sitting high (because it makes them feel powerful maybe?) and think SUVs are safer (which they are for their occupants, but to the detriment of everyone else on the road). But mostly status. Minivans and estate cars aren’t “cool” in the US so people won’t consider them despite the fact that they frequently serve drivers' use cases better in non-rural areas.

NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
I think there are at least two practical factors: people think vehicles with larger mass will be safer in case of an accident; and the higher seating position helps with visibility. Of course, in both cases, this is an arms race; but it's not irrational.
orwin 4y ago
SUV are actually more deadly than regular cars even for the people inside. Unless you crash on a lighter vehicle, you're more likely to die, and especially if the SUV turns over. So advice for all SUV drivers (I know you already do that and don't need it, but just in case) : it's better to crash in the vehicle ahead of you than to swerve to avoid it.
- za3faran 4y ago
  Do you have a citation for your last claim? SUVs (and cars in general) have been getting safer over time, including electronic stability controls.
  - orwin 4y ago
    Correlation between road death increase and car sales increase only. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in... The US is the only country to have this increase in the last ten years. But also, this is real advice: If you have the choice between risking a rollover and crashing in another vehicle, as a SUV driver, crash in the other vehicle. You might kill someone, but at least you'll be safe (and i know this is the primary factor in buying high-clearance SUVs).

sschueller 4y ago

Many SUVs aren't even made to go off-road. Even the mighty Electric Hummer was just recalled because it's not water tight enough[1] [1] https://www.thestreet.com/investing/gmc-hummer-ev-recalled-over-battery-problem https://www.thestreet.com/investing/gmc-hummer-ev-recalled-o...

causi 4y ago
SUVs have gone from being vehicles for outdoors people to vehicles for people who really need a minivan but are afraid of not looking cool.
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago
  I.e. continuously refining the product to cater to their core customers as their customer base shifts.
  - causi 4y ago
    A rational business decision but you're still dumb to cut your steak with a cleaver because it was the biggest coolest knife in the drawer.
pard68 4y ago
That's true, it's part of why I won't buy new vehicles. My Suburban is from 2003 and is definitely off-road worthy.

notacoward 4y ago

> Last week we had to ford a 20' wide, 3' deep creek. Then you're in a tiny minority of SUV owners, most of whom drive SUVs that can't handle that scenario and most of those never see anything but paved roads. > I also haul 10,000lbs of livestock on a regular basis. An even rarer need. If you feel you need an SUV, fine. Some people need other kinds of assistive devices too. But the point here is that there are millions of SUVs out there that are actually less practical for their owners' usage patterns than other kinds of vehicles, with harmful effects on both pedestrian safety and the environment. Focusing on the exceptions is distraction at best.

waboremo 4y ago
I believe you got defensive when the above comment was just proclaiming that they have specific uses for the larger vehicles, whereas the average suburbian person does not. So he's already doing what you advise, not attempting to "focus on the exceptions".
- notacoward 4y ago
  How can I be "defensive" when there's no attack? And why even bring up an obvious exception except to shift focus? Please stop tossing out conversation-stoppers regardless of applicability, and try to engage constructively.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    Someone asked why people want SUVs and someone gave their personal experience and rationale. hardly seems like an conspiracy to the shift focus.
Bloating 4y ago
While I agree there are unnecessary SUVs, the practical use of SUV is not as rare as a city dweller realizes. What annoys me: 1) jacked up trucks with not a speck of dirt 2) people with a narrow view of society and the contexts of other people's lives, assuming everyone should live how they live. Too many people have utopian views based on their narrow experiences. Not everything is or can be within walking distance. People have various abilities, but most all need to be mobile. Owning multiple, specialized cars for various occasions isn't necessarily the most economic or practical option. There aren't enough mom and pops and doctors to serve all needs within a reasonable distance.

macinjosh 4y ago

My reasons: 1. It still snows and ices in suburbia, and suburbia isn't always flat. So while not fjording a creek AWD and higher clearances are useful. 2. Long road trips are not doable in a cramped sedan for a family of four. 3. SUVs are popular so it is easy to find one and it is easy to sell one when you need to. Only a handful of car companies still sell a minivan today. 4. Cargo area balance with passenger area 5. Occasional towing 6. Car seats have become so large that they often do not fit safely in a backseat of a sedan or hatchback. All in all SUVs are incredibly well balanced vehicles for the average family needs.

adrr 4y ago
What about crossover which is just a hatchback sedan with a higher lift?
- macinjosh 4y ago
  See #2 and #6
  - NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
    The current generation Toyota RAV4 has more rear legroom, and (if you trust cars.com's review on these matters) fits contemporary child-seats better, than a BMW 5-series sedan. Packaging matters.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      The Toyota RAV4 is a SUV
      - NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
        You say potato, I say: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35082527 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35082527
      - adrr 4y ago

sokoloff 4y ago

> Can't figure out why folks in Suburbia with one or two kids would choose an SUV. We chose an SUV for two fairly simple reasons: we live in a snowy area and buy used vehicles; therefore, we select from among whatever the distribution of all-wheel drive, four-door vehicles sold new 5-10 years ago was and aren't beat to hell now. If those new vehicle buyers picked mostly SUVs, then we're picking mostly from among SUVs.

pard68 4y ago
I get this. I only ever buy used and never buy newer than '05. You are relegated to what was popular 20 years ago.

scottyah 4y ago

They're a lot easier to get in and out of for the elderly, I prefer the more engaged upwards sitting position vs having to basically lay down in sedans, they can carry all the couches, tables, firepits and coolers you need easily. I don't understand why anyone would want a sedan, might as well be a bike ride or a phone call.

harimau777 4y ago

For me the two main factors in purchasing an SUV where cargo space and safety.

nineplay 4y ago

Perhaps it's specific to my area of suburbia but a) road trips are by far the most common way to take vacations and b) many of those road-trips have portions going over snow or sand or mountain backroads. So you want some sort of all or 4 wheel drive and you need a lot of cargo space. There's tents and bikes and hiking or skiing or climbing equipment. It's possible to brainstorm about other solutions but none are perfect. Years ago we tried to rent a 4x4 for a desert trip and it was a nightmare. We got there, they didn't have any 4x4s, they ended up sending us to another location, and of course you have to sign a dozen waivers that promise to pay huge amounts of money for any scratch or dent.

orwin 4y ago
I guarantee you that unless you are an excellent driver, you'll fare way better in the snow with a normal sized car or even a minivan than with a 4x4. Especially if you are not used to snow. And you can sleep quite comfortably in a minivan.
- nineplay 4y ago
  My experience in snow differs from yours. If that makes me an excellent driver in your eyes then I appreciate the complement. I've slept in a minivan many times and it's wonderful for 2. 3 or more, not so much.
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    Okay then take it from me who has been driving in several feet of snow forever: Your technique matters a billion times more than your car, and tires are even more important than that up to a point. My Dodge Neon had no problem in $30 tires on literal ice because it's like 1500 pounds soaking wet. All these idiots get a giant 4x4 "for the snow" and then still drive with a damn lead foot in the winter, and all wheel drive does nothing to improve your breaking performance, which will be worse in a heavier vehicle. It's pure stupidity, from people who always want an easy solution with no effort instead of the actual solution, which is to just drive gentler.

fwungy 4y ago

The HN crowd is divided into urban tech progressives who use Climate Change as a sort of religious proxy to organize their beliefs around, and gun owning, truck driving libertarians, with the former a slight majority.