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Somewhat offtopic: I really wish we had more websites like this one. We should make it easier for end users to learn how to build their own sites and host them,

Somewhat offtopic: I really wish we had more websites like this one. We should make it easier for end users to learn how to build their own sites and host them, even if just as static pages. I've scraped numerous websites like these put together by university teachers, intended as learning material for students. Lots of the have now disappeared. They are crude and unpolished in the modern sense but the content they hold is invaluable. They are not bound by commercial motives and that's exactly what makes them special. The free-form of the medium also enables them to take whatever shape their creator envisages.

Aachen 4y ago
Dunno if we should teach more people to make sites like these https://snipboard.io/vAmURn.jpg https://snipboard.io/vAmURn.jpg (zoomed in for obviousness but I noticed it's blurry straight away) Generally I agree of course. My own site is hosted from a recycled laptop and weights a few kb per page. I don't post content just to have content and might go years between blogs, so no corporate publicity or ad revenue incentives. I miss sites like these, they're so hard to find nowadays.
- dylan604 4y ago
  Yeah, sites were every thing was a graphic so it's not "selectable" and searchable were all the rage in the days of Flash. how much more light weight could it be by removing an image and just having text and some CSS to style it? I didn't say some CSS library, so enough to style it.
  - javajosh 4y ago
    Adobe Flash (the player and authoring tool) was so good for the indie game scene! I'm pretty sure it was horrible for every other use-case, but back in the day Kongregate had some of the most interesting, inventive and well-done games I'd ever scene. I've never experienced so many novel game mechanics, and all because the barrier-to-entry was so low. I see why there was never any money in it for Adobe (btw valiant effort with Flex!) but the death of Flash still makes me sad for this reason alone.
- javajosh 4y ago
  >My own site is hosted from a recycled laptop and weights a few kb per page It would be cool if such sites joined a web ring and helped promote each other that way. (If high-waisted jeans can come back, why not web rings?)
javajosh 4y ago
>We should make it easier for end users to learn how to build their own sites and host them, even if just as static pages. Its definitely not easy. I recently spun up a public bespoke web server on a $5 VPS. I was surprised by the immediate and constant probes and attacks. Hardening the server was non-trivial for me, as I'm not a professional sysadmin. Nothing was trivial, from setting up DNS to ssh to fail2ban. My setup was as simple as possible (one node, one DNS name, one server process) and it still took me a full two days, plus some extra fiddling, to get it setup properly and reproducibility. Starting from zero it takes enormous knowledge. Can it be made easier? Yes, I think so. On the high-tech side I think ChatGPT is going to play a role in lowering the learning curve for this kind of stuff. On the low-tech side I think experts could offer help to new learners, but I'm not sure what channels make sense. I'm not sure how it could be simplified without violating the primary purpose of the exercise.
- franga2000 4y ago
  If what you need is a web server, get a web server. You can get decent web hosting for 20€ per year and it will perform a lot better than your 5€ VPS.
  - javajosh 4y ago
    Do you have an example? There is no unambiguous way to define "web server"! Consider all the ways you can rent a host in virtually every state between disassembled parts on a table (Newegg) to renting DC for your own hardware (Hetzner) to running an httpd process running in a hypervisor running on a fully managed server in a DC (VPS) to sharing wordpress db/virtual host space on a LAMP process (wordpress.com). And everything in between. (And that's not every option, either. "Push markdown and let github/gitlab publish it for me" or "write a gist" are in this space, as is codepen, meteor, aws, and reddit - really anything tool or stack that lets you "change the state of the public web". Even HN!). In fact, understanding this spectrum of options is a task in itself - imagine starting from scratch and trying to pick a path! At what point on this spectrum do you transition away from "self hosting"? Personally, I put the line at "vanilla VPS". I do not consider sharing wordpress space self-hosted, nor is having a webmin. (And yet, either is certainly more self-hosted than a Facebook group page!) My approach was "device oriented" in that I wanted to act as if I was configuring a fresh piece of server hardware with a new OS and so on. The cheapest way to get that is a VPS. It is at this level that I feel I have the most flexibility, the least lock in, and, importantly, the most leverage.
pabs3 4y ago
ArchiveTeam tend to save those sorts of sites too. For the ones that are still up, they could be sent to archive.org via ArchiveBot: https://wiki.archiveteam.org/ https://wiki.archiveteam.org/ https://wiki.archiveteam.org/index.php/ArchiveBot https://wiki.archiveteam.org/index.php/ArchiveBot
DeathArrow 4y ago
What's wrong with stuff like Wix, Squarespace or even Wordpress for simple content?
eternityforest 4y ago
Forums were a good compromise, not too commercial and full of great content, but also accessible to people who would rather not spend $5 a month and hand write HTML

Aachen 4y ago

Dunno if we should teach more people to make sites like these https://snipboard.io/vAmURn.jpg https://snipboard.io/vAmURn.jpg (zoomed in for obviousness but I noticed it's blurry straight away) Generally I agree of course. My own site is hosted from a recycled laptop and weights a few kb per page. I don't post content just to have content and might go years between blogs, so no corporate publicity or ad revenue incentives. I miss sites like these, they're so hard to find nowadays.

dylan604 4y ago
Yeah, sites were every thing was a graphic so it's not "selectable" and searchable were all the rage in the days of Flash. how much more light weight could it be by removing an image and just having text and some CSS to style it? I didn't say some CSS library, so enough to style it.
- javajosh 4y ago
  Adobe Flash (the player and authoring tool) was so good for the indie game scene! I'm pretty sure it was horrible for every other use-case, but back in the day Kongregate had some of the most interesting, inventive and well-done games I'd ever scene. I've never experienced so many novel game mechanics, and all because the barrier-to-entry was so low. I see why there was never any money in it for Adobe (btw valiant effort with Flex!) but the death of Flash still makes me sad for this reason alone.
javajosh 4y ago
>My own site is hosted from a recycled laptop and weights a few kb per page It would be cool if such sites joined a web ring and helped promote each other that way. (If high-waisted jeans can come back, why not web rings?)

javajosh 4y ago

>We should make it easier for end users to learn how to build their own sites and host them, even if just as static pages. Its definitely not easy. I recently spun up a public bespoke web server on a $5 VPS. I was surprised by the immediate and constant probes and attacks. Hardening the server was non-trivial for me, as I'm not a professional sysadmin. Nothing was trivial, from setting up DNS to ssh to fail2ban. My setup was as simple as possible (one node, one DNS name, one server process) and it still took me a full two days, plus some extra fiddling, to get it setup properly and reproducibility. Starting from zero it takes enormous knowledge. Can it be made easier? Yes, I think so. On the high-tech side I think ChatGPT is going to play a role in lowering the learning curve for this kind of stuff. On the low-tech side I think experts could offer help to new learners, but I'm not sure what channels make sense. I'm not sure how it could be simplified without violating the primary purpose of the exercise.

franga2000 4y ago
If what you need is a web server, get a web server. You can get decent web hosting for 20€ per year and it will perform a lot better than your 5€ VPS.
- javajosh 4y ago
  Do you have an example? There is no unambiguous way to define "web server"! Consider all the ways you can rent a host in virtually every state between disassembled parts on a table (Newegg) to renting DC for your own hardware (Hetzner) to running an httpd process running in a hypervisor running on a fully managed server in a DC (VPS) to sharing wordpress db/virtual host space on a LAMP process (wordpress.com). And everything in between. (And that's not every option, either. "Push markdown and let github/gitlab publish it for me" or "write a gist" are in this space, as is codepen, meteor, aws, and reddit - really anything tool or stack that lets you "change the state of the public web". Even HN!). In fact, understanding this spectrum of options is a task in itself - imagine starting from scratch and trying to pick a path! At what point on this spectrum do you transition away from "self hosting"? Personally, I put the line at "vanilla VPS". I do not consider sharing wordpress space self-hosted, nor is having a webmin. (And yet, either is certainly more self-hosted than a Facebook group page!) My approach was "device oriented" in that I wanted to act as if I was configuring a fresh piece of server hardware with a new OS and so on. The cheapest way to get that is a VPS. It is at this level that I feel I have the most flexibility, the least lock in, and, importantly, the most leverage.

pabs3 4y ago

ArchiveTeam tend to save those sorts of sites too. For the ones that are still up, they could be sent to archive.org via ArchiveBot: https://wiki.archiveteam.org/ https://wiki.archiveteam.org/ https://wiki.archiveteam.org/index.php/ArchiveBot https://wiki.archiveteam.org/index.php/ArchiveBot

DeathArrow 4y ago

What's wrong with stuff like Wix, Squarespace or even Wordpress for simple content?

eternityforest 4y ago

Forums were a good compromise, not too commercial and full of great content, but also accessible to people who would rather not spend $5 a month and hand write HTML