8 ms·

Got any street view examples? I'm always interested in urban success stories. To me 3-5 stories is the sweet spot for density most cities should be aiming for.

Got any street view examples? I'm always interested in urban success stories. To me 3-5 stories is the sweet spot for density most cities should be aiming for. You get plenty of people in a given area without it feeling crowded. 3-5 story buildings are among the cheapest to construct since you can use pretty run-of-the-mill techniques and materials to maximize the square-cube law per dollar. It's dense enough to make investment in mass transit really viable without really straining city services like water and sewers. Plus it avoids the "Manhattenification" suburbanities seem so terrified of any time the word density is hinted at.

bombcar 4y ago
I've seen convincing arguments that 3-5 stories is also about as far as you can go and still be "connected" to the neighborhood. Anything taller and you might as well be walking through a portal to another world.
- TuringNYC 4y ago
  Where I lived in Brooklyn, the limit (and most common height) was 12 story. I did not feel any visible difference in "connection" and IMHO connection is more about community institutions which drive the connections. I can give several examples of what I think were the connective tissue of the neighborhood: We had an awesome food cooperative https://www.foodcoop.com/ https://www.foodcoop.com/, a playground, a fro-yo place with outdoor seating, a YMCA, and numerous cafes. These days there is a recreation center. Now, there is a different problem -- housing is expensive. When you have a huge mortgage, you spend more time at work, more time worrying about work, and less time enjoying life. That isnt the fault of the buildings, it is more about restrictive housing policy and multi-decade-ZIRP.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  I like 3-5 story buildings for aesthetic reasons, but my anecdotal experience is that taller buildings don't preclude personal connections: I grew up in a ~16 story building that was built in the 1930s, and had lots of connections with my neighbors, their children, etc.
- hammock 4y ago
  4-5 stories is typically the maximum before an elevator is required by code/overwhelmingly desired. You can compare the relative success of low-income low-rise developments vs. the notorious high-rise projects that were universal failures
  - mjmahone17 4y ago
    A big problem in the US is we don’t allow tiny elevators, except in pre-WWII buildings that already have them. In Spain I’ve seen new 4 story flats with 1-2 units per floor with a small 2-person sized elevator. In the US that elevator would need to be much larger, as it needs to fit a stretcher (despite the fact that if the elevator wasn’t there, the stretcher would be taking the stairs anyways). But because a single elevator in the US takes up so much space they cause floor plans to get really weird and it makes it difficult to justify the expense.
    - unethical_ban 4y ago
      The apartment that my friend lived in is stereotypical. It had probably 300-400 units over seven floors. Not a 5-over-1, but similar design. Cloistered hallways with balconies facing exterior or to interior pool/parking garage areas. In that building there were two elevators - one "normal" for US standards and one oversized, presumably for moving. I don't think it's unreasonable to have such a setup for a large building, particularly with how large furniture and beds can be.
- PaulHoule 4y ago
  In that size range you can open the window on the top floor, identify people at ground level and even have a conversation even if it means yelling.
- yongjik 4y ago
  I grew up in a 15-story apartment in Seoul - every day there's a stream of students walking to schools and back, passing along stationery shops, snacks, barber shops, groceries, and what not. Even now, when I visit the place (my parents still live there), I feel much more connected to the neighborhood than my current suburban single house could ever be. Here you take five steps out of your door and drive away, because there's nothing interesting within walking distance. There's no sense of a "neighborhood." (To be fair, the noise was always an issue, and in my current place, it feels really nice to be able to do jumping jacks and play the piano at 9pm. So there's that.)
  - pkdpic 4y ago
    Good share, I had the same feeling visiting Taiwan and then coming back to California. But yeah when I was in LA and had to start going to therapy because the neighbors in our orwellian apartment building were making so much noise I was having week-long panic attacks the therapist told me he grew up in S.Korea and people would stab their neighbors over noise regularly. He was a great guy but that was kind of his only advice? That stuck with me.
    - yongjik 4y ago
      Yep the noise was always an issue, and from what I've heard it's actually getting worse because construction quality is going down. (In the old days, Korea didn't have much experience in construction, so they compensated by pouring a generous amount of concrete and steel, or so I've heard. Now they know exactly how much they need, so walls are getting thinner and thinner.) A sad state of affairs.
- rr888 4y ago
  I'm not sure about connected, but I do like being able to walk the stairs to the apt, being able to open a door to a balcony. Its also less instrusive to the neighborhood than a tower which overlooks everyone.
- drewcoo 4y ago
  Well what were those arguments? There are unconvinced respondents here.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    I think it was in one of the other volumes of the set that includes A Pattern Language, I'll have to try to dig it up. It mainly had to do with being "disconnected" with the street once you were more than 5 floors up if I remember correctly.
poutine 4y ago
5 over 1 construction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-over-1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-over-1 It's awesome, it should be everywhere.
- pkdpic 4y ago
  That's fantastic and yeah that's exactly what I'm seeing in Sacramento!
- rr888 4y ago
  I live in one, it isn't that awesome. Lots of noise from neighbours, but the worst thing is the big fire hazard. The risk of fire means there is a lot of sprinklers everywhere which regularly get damaged and leak everywhere. Usually every 2-3 years in our building a sprinkler pipe will get broken or leak will appear and destroy a few units.
  - scythe 4y ago
    The issue with the modern apartment building noise, in my estimation, isn't wood construction (which is commonly blamed), but ducts. The double-loaded corridor requires extra ventilation per fire code. The demand for central air conditioning implies ducts. A properly designed double-stud wooden wall can have a Sound Transmission Class higher than 60, but a small hole in a wall can cut the STC by as much as 30. The presence of a large void in the wall (duct) could severely reduce the efficacy of the sound insulation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_Transmission_Class#Sound_leakage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_Transmission_Class#Sound_... The apartment buildings I've lived in without central A/C (in Atlanta and San Francisco) were consistently quieter than the ones with central A/C. Underfloor radiant heating and wall A/C units might be a better way to design apartment buildings. Removing climate control from the access corridor and letting it vent to the outside would reduce the need for sprinklers and complex ventilation. This is slightly less energy efficient, but apartment buildings are already way more energy efficient than houses, and anything that makes apartments more livable can increase the efficiency of the whole society by increasing people's willingness to live in apartments.
    - 4y ago

bombcar 4y ago

I've seen convincing arguments that 3-5 stories is also about as far as you can go and still be "connected" to the neighborhood. Anything taller and you might as well be walking through a portal to another world.

TuringNYC 4y ago
Where I lived in Brooklyn, the limit (and most common height) was 12 story. I did not feel any visible difference in "connection" and IMHO connection is more about community institutions which drive the connections. I can give several examples of what I think were the connective tissue of the neighborhood: We had an awesome food cooperative https://www.foodcoop.com/ https://www.foodcoop.com/, a playground, a fro-yo place with outdoor seating, a YMCA, and numerous cafes. These days there is a recreation center. Now, there is a different problem -- housing is expensive. When you have a huge mortgage, you spend more time at work, more time worrying about work, and less time enjoying life. That isnt the fault of the buildings, it is more about restrictive housing policy and multi-decade-ZIRP.
woodruffw 4y ago
I like 3-5 story buildings for aesthetic reasons, but my anecdotal experience is that taller buildings don't preclude personal connections: I grew up in a ~16 story building that was built in the 1930s, and had lots of connections with my neighbors, their children, etc.
hammock 4y ago
4-5 stories is typically the maximum before an elevator is required by code/overwhelmingly desired. You can compare the relative success of low-income low-rise developments vs. the notorious high-rise projects that were universal failures
- mjmahone17 4y ago
  A big problem in the US is we don’t allow tiny elevators, except in pre-WWII buildings that already have them. In Spain I’ve seen new 4 story flats with 1-2 units per floor with a small 2-person sized elevator. In the US that elevator would need to be much larger, as it needs to fit a stretcher (despite the fact that if the elevator wasn’t there, the stretcher would be taking the stairs anyways). But because a single elevator in the US takes up so much space they cause floor plans to get really weird and it makes it difficult to justify the expense.
  - unethical_ban 4y ago
    The apartment that my friend lived in is stereotypical. It had probably 300-400 units over seven floors. Not a 5-over-1, but similar design. Cloistered hallways with balconies facing exterior or to interior pool/parking garage areas. In that building there were two elevators - one "normal" for US standards and one oversized, presumably for moving. I don't think it's unreasonable to have such a setup for a large building, particularly with how large furniture and beds can be.
PaulHoule 4y ago
In that size range you can open the window on the top floor, identify people at ground level and even have a conversation even if it means yelling.
yongjik 4y ago
I grew up in a 15-story apartment in Seoul - every day there's a stream of students walking to schools and back, passing along stationery shops, snacks, barber shops, groceries, and what not. Even now, when I visit the place (my parents still live there), I feel much more connected to the neighborhood than my current suburban single house could ever be. Here you take five steps out of your door and drive away, because there's nothing interesting within walking distance. There's no sense of a "neighborhood." (To be fair, the noise was always an issue, and in my current place, it feels really nice to be able to do jumping jacks and play the piano at 9pm. So there's that.)
- pkdpic 4y ago
  Good share, I had the same feeling visiting Taiwan and then coming back to California. But yeah when I was in LA and had to start going to therapy because the neighbors in our orwellian apartment building were making so much noise I was having week-long panic attacks the therapist told me he grew up in S.Korea and people would stab their neighbors over noise regularly. He was a great guy but that was kind of his only advice? That stuck with me.
  - yongjik 4y ago
    Yep the noise was always an issue, and from what I've heard it's actually getting worse because construction quality is going down. (In the old days, Korea didn't have much experience in construction, so they compensated by pouring a generous amount of concrete and steel, or so I've heard. Now they know exactly how much they need, so walls are getting thinner and thinner.) A sad state of affairs.
rr888 4y ago
I'm not sure about connected, but I do like being able to walk the stairs to the apt, being able to open a door to a balcony. Its also less instrusive to the neighborhood than a tower which overlooks everyone.
drewcoo 4y ago
Well what were those arguments? There are unconvinced respondents here.
- bombcar 4y ago
  I think it was in one of the other volumes of the set that includes A Pattern Language, I'll have to try to dig it up. It mainly had to do with being "disconnected" with the street once you were more than 5 floors up if I remember correctly.

poutine 4y ago

5 over 1 construction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-over-1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-over-1 It's awesome, it should be everywhere.

pkdpic 4y ago
That's fantastic and yeah that's exactly what I'm seeing in Sacramento!
rr888 4y ago
I live in one, it isn't that awesome. Lots of noise from neighbours, but the worst thing is the big fire hazard. The risk of fire means there is a lot of sprinklers everywhere which regularly get damaged and leak everywhere. Usually every 2-3 years in our building a sprinkler pipe will get broken or leak will appear and destroy a few units.
- scythe 4y ago
  The issue with the modern apartment building noise, in my estimation, isn't wood construction (which is commonly blamed), but ducts. The double-loaded corridor requires extra ventilation per fire code. The demand for central air conditioning implies ducts. A properly designed double-stud wooden wall can have a Sound Transmission Class higher than 60, but a small hole in a wall can cut the STC by as much as 30. The presence of a large void in the wall (duct) could severely reduce the efficacy of the sound insulation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_Transmission_Class#Sound_leakage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_Transmission_Class#Sound_... The apartment buildings I've lived in without central A/C (in Atlanta and San Francisco) were consistently quieter than the ones with central A/C. Underfloor radiant heating and wall A/C units might be a better way to design apartment buildings. Removing climate control from the access corridor and letting it vent to the outside would reduce the need for sprinklers and complex ventilation. This is slightly less energy efficient, but apartment buildings are already way more energy efficient than houses, and anything that makes apartments more livable can increase the efficiency of the whole society by increasing people's willingness to live in apartments.
  - 4y ago