7 ms·

How Britain ceased to be a computing superpower

32 points by shaftoe444 4y ago

fumblebee 4y ago
https://archive.ph/mu0pK https://archive.ph/mu0pK
senttoschool 4y ago
Opening sentence: >Britain has fallen behind Russia and China in the global supercomputing race and has a short window to catch-up, the Government has been warned. I like how subtle the propaganda is here. Or maybe it's not subtle?
- LatteLazy 4y ago
  On one hand I agree. On the other hand, no one cares about science and tech unless <generic boggyman> might be beating us at it!
  - senttoschool 4y ago
    Media headline when US makes a breakthrough: "Fusion energy breakthrough achieved, paving way for cheap energy for everyone". Media headline when China makes a breakthrough: "China achieves fusion breakthrough, could allow China to dominate the world"
    - tjpnz 4y ago
      Media headline in China when China makes a breakthrough: "Fusion energy breakthrough achieved, paving way for cheap energy for everyone". Media headline in China when US makes a breakthrough: "US achieves fusion breakthrough, could allow US to dominate the world"
      - senttoschool 4y ago
        Lived in China from 2017-2020. What you described wasn’t true in China but true in western mass media. I’ve written about how my friends in China were confused why the US was so hostile to China. They didn’t understand. They didn’t have the same negative perception about America as America had of them. Not sure about now though. Perhaps their perception of America is trending towards negative now that it’s clear to them that America does not like them.
        Veen 4y ago
        Are you arguing that anti-Western media propaganda doesn't exist in China? Did you by any chance spend your three years in China walking about with a blindfold on?
        senttoschool 4y ago
        Have you been to China? Or are you just making this shit up from never having been to China or learned anything about its recent history? Do you actually think that the level of anti-China propaganda in western media is nearly the same as the level of anti-western propaganda in China over the last 6 years? How much propaganda did you drink to even reply the way you did?
        tjpnz 4y ago
        I'm half basing this on the speeches given by China's top diplomat who always seems on the verge of a brain aneurysm when talking about the west. Do they not play him for local audiences?
  - shaftoe444 4y ago
    The mineshaft gap?
  - WeylandYutani 4y ago
    When the Dutch PM met with Biden a few months ago ASML was the first talking point on the agenda. https://nos.nl/nieuwsuur/video/2460251-rutte-en-biden-spreken-over-oorlog-en-chipmaker-asml https://nos.nl/nieuwsuur/video/2460251-rutte-en-biden-spreke... Beating other countries is kind of the point otherwise you end up like Greece.
    - LatteLazy 4y ago
      Of course, in this case the Dutch won by (1) investing for the long term and (2) not stopping when they were one step ahead of <other country>
      - WeylandYutani 4y ago
        Those who are first will later be last as Bob Dylan once sang.
- Veen 4y ago
  What propaganda? That it would be nice if Britain wasn't being beaten in the supercomputing industry by a totalitarian dictatorship and warmongering dictatorship? As a Brit, I think it's just common sense rather than propaganda.
  - shaftoe444 4y ago
    Wanting to be wealthy and competent is dangerously right wing.
    - happymellon 4y ago
      Wanting to be competent is definitely not right wing. Remember "we have had enough of experts"?
      - Veen 4y ago
        Because this is often tendentiously quoted without context, here's what Gove actually said: > “I think the people of this country have had enough of experts with organisations with acronyms saying that they know what is best and getting it consistently wrong.” His problem is not with experts, but with people who claim the authority of experts without the track record or ability to justify that claim, i.e. people who are wrong most of the time, but expect you to believe them unquestioningly anyway. I'm sure we can all think of examples.
        happymellon 4y ago
        Yep. Gove for one. Truss? Essentially the current makeup of the Tories. They all claim to know what's best whilst making everything worse. I'm trying to think of any examples where reputable authorities made statements that the government followed because it was the right thing to do, and wasn't a made up group from a Tory sponsor who was parroting the party line, and it was wrong.
  - favaq 4y ago
    What exactly makes democracies better than "totalitarian dictatorships" and "warmongering dictatorships" at supercomputing so that it's such a shame that Britain is being beaten by China and Russia?
- albertopv 4y ago
  Russia started a war in Europe, after having interferied in UK brexit vote, and China is clearly supporting Russia. Call it propaganda if you want.
teddyX 4y ago
Things are difficult when you can’t just steal from other nations
- moremetadata 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - jiveturkey42 4y ago
    This country was simply better off when we were just in thatch huts herding sheep, before all that nasty history and such happened
    - moremetadata 4y ago
      Thats too extreme, there is an unspoken culture in the UK, for example the saying, stiff upper lip, its a reference to keep quiet and carry on, like those war time propaganda posters and tee shirts you now see adorning many things and people. I've been in a unique position to see some of that mentality, army cadets doing military baths on other teenagers that carries on into the military, beastings of sorts. A violent profession like the military or police have a lord of the flies fraternity culture. The officers get their own mess, ironically Royal Marine officers have to be physically fitter than a normal Royal Marine and operate on less sleep, ie first up, last to bed, but going to a private school will help enormously for officer selection across the military, this is one place where snobbery and not meritocracy is order of the day. Now considering the unhindered privilege the military commands I would say the upper classes do abuse their rank, but this is also a culture created by private school attendance, more so boarding than day school. Just look at the massacre of Amritsar [1] that mentality still exists in some circles today, I cant really speak highly of Eton of all places, but then I got to witness some military personnel when the first black person took place in the trooping of the colour, and the bile that was coming of the mouths would put any racist to shame! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jallianwala_Bagh_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jallianwala_Bagh_massacre
LatteLazy 4y ago
One major cause was the policy of defunding education and research. A policy the Telegraph championed and campaigned for. Another was Brexit (literally sold as "the British people have had enough of experts"). Another colossal mistake the Telegraph pushed for, defended and now finds itself making excuses for.
- blitzar 4y ago
  There is a certain dialogue around the desire to have nothing to do with "green energy" lately as well (another policy the Telegraph championed and campaigned for). I get that some technology can be dangerous - but this is wind turbines, solar panels or fart powered electricty. They might not be the best option for everyone, but to not persue any innovation that you can then sell to the rest of the world just seems dumb. Its that same sort of fear that led the uk to abandoning its headstart in computers.
  - LatteLazy 4y ago
    In 10 years they'll ask why we are importing all out wind turbines and solar panels from China...
WeylandYutani 4y ago
The country that pushed Turing to madness but let Jimmy Saville grow old. Anyway Europe dedicated all it's resources to two world wars which left the field open for America. Thankfully 1000 years of culture means we haven't been completely subsumed by them.
ralusek 4y ago
Is this just talking specifically about supercomputers/actual compute power? Because otherwise I think it's fair to say that Britain is still a computing superpower. Deepmind alone is at the forefront of its domain.
kcartlidge 4y ago
It's a shame (I guess?) to drop down the super-computing rankings, but personally I don't equate "supercomputing power" with "computing superpower".
- Koshkin 4y ago
  Is this an adjunction, perhaps?
thinking001001 4y ago
The reality is the technology industry has become heavily privatised, and privatisation means sales, and good engineers aren't interested in sales, but funding is required to build things... So, you need companies or governments with a long-term mindset, which isn't easy to come by. So instead you get entrepreneurs with borderline-capable engineering abilities, and typically businesses who think of short-term profits, and the end result is gimmicky 'products' rather than breakthrough inventions. Note however, that there is greater room for complacency in the public sector, given the endless pool of money (via taxes, inflation), whereas the private sector is more touch-and-go and can be more competitive. So I guess it is about balancing the public/private sectors optimally, which is ambiguous as to how to do. By the way I didn't read the article.

32 points by shaftoe444 4y ago

https://archive.ph/mu0pK https://archive.ph/mu0pK

Opening sentence: >Britain has fallen behind Russia and China in the global supercomputing race and has a short window to catch-up, the Government has been warned. I like how subtle the propaganda is here. Or maybe it's not subtle?

LatteLazy 4y ago
On one hand I agree. On the other hand, no one cares about science and tech unless <generic boggyman> might be beating us at it!
- senttoschool 4y ago
  Media headline when US makes a breakthrough: "Fusion energy breakthrough achieved, paving way for cheap energy for everyone". Media headline when China makes a breakthrough: "China achieves fusion breakthrough, could allow China to dominate the world"
  - tjpnz 4y ago
    Media headline in China when China makes a breakthrough: "Fusion energy breakthrough achieved, paving way for cheap energy for everyone". Media headline in China when US makes a breakthrough: "US achieves fusion breakthrough, could allow US to dominate the world"
    - senttoschool 4y ago
      Lived in China from 2017-2020. What you described wasn’t true in China but true in western mass media. I’ve written about how my friends in China were confused why the US was so hostile to China. They didn’t understand. They didn’t have the same negative perception about America as America had of them. Not sure about now though. Perhaps their perception of America is trending towards negative now that it’s clear to them that America does not like them.
      - Veen 4y ago
        Are you arguing that anti-Western media propaganda doesn't exist in China? Did you by any chance spend your three years in China walking about with a blindfold on?
        senttoschool 4y ago
        Have you been to China? Or are you just making this shit up from never having been to China or learned anything about its recent history? Do you actually think that the level of anti-China propaganda in western media is nearly the same as the level of anti-western propaganda in China over the last 6 years? How much propaganda did you drink to even reply the way you did?
      - tjpnz 4y ago
        I'm half basing this on the speeches given by China's top diplomat who always seems on the verge of a brain aneurysm when talking about the west. Do they not play him for local audiences?
- shaftoe444 4y ago
  The mineshaft gap?
- WeylandYutani 4y ago
  When the Dutch PM met with Biden a few months ago ASML was the first talking point on the agenda. https://nos.nl/nieuwsuur/video/2460251-rutte-en-biden-spreken-over-oorlog-en-chipmaker-asml https://nos.nl/nieuwsuur/video/2460251-rutte-en-biden-spreke... Beating other countries is kind of the point otherwise you end up like Greece.
  - LatteLazy 4y ago
    Of course, in this case the Dutch won by (1) investing for the long term and (2) not stopping when they were one step ahead of <other country>
    - WeylandYutani 4y ago
      Those who are first will later be last as Bob Dylan once sang.
Veen 4y ago
What propaganda? That it would be nice if Britain wasn't being beaten in the supercomputing industry by a totalitarian dictatorship and warmongering dictatorship? As a Brit, I think it's just common sense rather than propaganda.
- shaftoe444 4y ago
  Wanting to be wealthy and competent is dangerously right wing.
  - happymellon 4y ago
    Wanting to be competent is definitely not right wing. Remember "we have had enough of experts"?
    - Veen 4y ago
      Because this is often tendentiously quoted without context, here's what Gove actually said: > “I think the people of this country have had enough of experts with organisations with acronyms saying that they know what is best and getting it consistently wrong.” His problem is not with experts, but with people who claim the authority of experts without the track record or ability to justify that claim, i.e. people who are wrong most of the time, but expect you to believe them unquestioningly anyway. I'm sure we can all think of examples.
      - happymellon 4y ago
        Yep. Gove for one. Truss? Essentially the current makeup of the Tories. They all claim to know what's best whilst making everything worse. I'm trying to think of any examples where reputable authorities made statements that the government followed because it was the right thing to do, and wasn't a made up group from a Tory sponsor who was parroting the party line, and it was wrong.
- favaq 4y ago
  What exactly makes democracies better than "totalitarian dictatorships" and "warmongering dictatorships" at supercomputing so that it's such a shame that Britain is being beaten by China and Russia?
albertopv 4y ago
Russia started a war in Europe, after having interferied in UK brexit vote, and China is clearly supporting Russia. Call it propaganda if you want.

teddyX 4y ago

Things are difficult when you can’t just steal from other nations

moremetadata 4y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- jiveturkey42 4y ago
  This country was simply better off when we were just in thatch huts herding sheep, before all that nasty history and such happened
  - moremetadata 4y ago
    Thats too extreme, there is an unspoken culture in the UK, for example the saying, stiff upper lip, its a reference to keep quiet and carry on, like those war time propaganda posters and tee shirts you now see adorning many things and people. I've been in a unique position to see some of that mentality, army cadets doing military baths on other teenagers that carries on into the military, beastings of sorts. A violent profession like the military or police have a lord of the flies fraternity culture. The officers get their own mess, ironically Royal Marine officers have to be physically fitter than a normal Royal Marine and operate on less sleep, ie first up, last to bed, but going to a private school will help enormously for officer selection across the military, this is one place where snobbery and not meritocracy is order of the day. Now considering the unhindered privilege the military commands I would say the upper classes do abuse their rank, but this is also a culture created by private school attendance, more so boarding than day school. Just look at the massacre of Amritsar [1] that mentality still exists in some circles today, I cant really speak highly of Eton of all places, but then I got to witness some military personnel when the first black person took place in the trooping of the colour, and the bile that was coming of the mouths would put any racist to shame! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jallianwala_Bagh_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jallianwala_Bagh_massacre

LatteLazy 4y ago

One major cause was the policy of defunding education and research. A policy the Telegraph championed and campaigned for. Another was Brexit (literally sold as "the British people have had enough of experts"). Another colossal mistake the Telegraph pushed for, defended and now finds itself making excuses for.

blitzar 4y ago
There is a certain dialogue around the desire to have nothing to do with "green energy" lately as well (another policy the Telegraph championed and campaigned for). I get that some technology can be dangerous - but this is wind turbines, solar panels or fart powered electricty. They might not be the best option for everyone, but to not persue any innovation that you can then sell to the rest of the world just seems dumb. Its that same sort of fear that led the uk to abandoning its headstart in computers.
- LatteLazy 4y ago
  In 10 years they'll ask why we are importing all out wind turbines and solar panels from China...

WeylandYutani 4y ago

The country that pushed Turing to madness but let Jimmy Saville grow old. Anyway Europe dedicated all it's resources to two world wars which left the field open for America. Thankfully 1000 years of culture means we haven't been completely subsumed by them.

ralusek 4y ago

Is this just talking specifically about supercomputers/actual compute power? Because otherwise I think it's fair to say that Britain is still a computing superpower. Deepmind alone is at the forefront of its domain.

kcartlidge 4y ago

It's a shame (I guess?) to drop down the super-computing rankings, but personally I don't equate "supercomputing power" with "computing superpower".

Koshkin 4y ago
Is this an adjunction, perhaps?

thinking001001 4y ago

The reality is the technology industry has become heavily privatised, and privatisation means sales, and good engineers aren't interested in sales, but funding is required to build things... So, you need companies or governments with a long-term mindset, which isn't easy to come by. So instead you get entrepreneurs with borderline-capable engineering abilities, and typically businesses who think of short-term profits, and the end result is gimmicky 'products' rather than breakthrough inventions. Note however, that there is greater room for complacency in the public sector, given the endless pool of money (via taxes, inflation), whereas the private sector is more touch-and-go and can be more competitive. So I guess it is about balancing the public/private sectors optimally, which is ambiguous as to how to do. By the way I didn't read the article.