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> Surely people can find better use for their time and energy than churning through half-baked frameworks? We should have all stayed on backbone or Prototype.j

> Surely people can find better use for their time and energy than churning through half-baked frameworks? We should have all stayed on backbone or Prototype.js with that logic. People look for alternatives because the status quo is awful (slow, verbose, footgunful). You’re saying “who needs cars when we got horses? Cars break down all the time”

college_physics 4y ago
No, when you mention js libraries you are already starting the clock way too late. The UI problem is not new. People were already building clunky UI cars long ago. MFC was introduced by Microsoft in 1992. Of course the emergence of the web platform and mobile/touch devices complicates the matter as you now have a proliferation of platforms to address (desktop native, desktop web, mobile native, mobile web) but my argument is that fundamental patterns on how to do this efficiently should have emerged by now - and I see exactly the opposite. It would be nice to see some sort of convergence. Reinventing the wheel might be "fun" or gainful in a narrow sense but it certainly doesn't help with productivity.
- regularfry 4y ago
  The NextSTEP/Cocoa family tree has lasted long enough to be interesting. No first-hand experience with it myself though.
  - college_physics 4y ago
    Never been close to one of these coveted Next machines but checking out what wikipedia writes about it [0] captures perfectly my point about good UI frameworks supporting productivity: "1990 CERN: A Joint proposal for a hypertext system is presented to the management. Mike Sendall buys a NeXT cube for evaluation, and gives it to Tim Berners-Lee. Tim's prototype implementation on NeXTStep is made in the space of a few months, thanks to the qualities of the NeXTStep software development system." [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeXTSTEP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeXTSTEP
- bsenftner 4y ago
  For what you're talking about, Computer Science History needs to be taught, which it is not, and if it did it would be filled with current industry trend propaganda. Fact of the matter, every developer have to learn it all themselves because this history is not taught. However, most developers get caught up in a "build now!, ship now! now! now! now!" and no history or accrued deep knowledge from other developers can be transferred with any quality or retention.

college_physics 4y ago

No, when you mention js libraries you are already starting the clock way too late. The UI problem is not new. People were already building clunky UI cars long ago. MFC was introduced by Microsoft in 1992. Of course the emergence of the web platform and mobile/touch devices complicates the matter as you now have a proliferation of platforms to address (desktop native, desktop web, mobile native, mobile web) but my argument is that fundamental patterns on how to do this efficiently should have emerged by now - and I see exactly the opposite. It would be nice to see some sort of convergence. Reinventing the wheel might be "fun" or gainful in a narrow sense but it certainly doesn't help with productivity.

regularfry 4y ago
The NextSTEP/Cocoa family tree has lasted long enough to be interesting. No first-hand experience with it myself though.
- college_physics 4y ago
  Never been close to one of these coveted Next machines but checking out what wikipedia writes about it [0] captures perfectly my point about good UI frameworks supporting productivity: "1990 CERN: A Joint proposal for a hypertext system is presented to the management. Mike Sendall buys a NeXT cube for evaluation, and gives it to Tim Berners-Lee. Tim's prototype implementation on NeXTStep is made in the space of a few months, thanks to the qualities of the NeXTStep software development system." [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeXTSTEP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeXTSTEP
bsenftner 4y ago
For what you're talking about, Computer Science History needs to be taught, which it is not, and if it did it would be filled with current industry trend propaganda. Fact of the matter, every developer have to learn it all themselves because this history is not taught. However, most developers get caught up in a "build now!, ship now! now! now! now!" and no history or accrued deep knowledge from other developers can be transferred with any quality or retention.