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I’ve seen these kinds of decisions being made. They believe they’re worth it, their product is good enough to have a premium total ownership cost. They believ

I’ve seen these kinds of decisions being made. They believe they’re worth it, their product is good enough to have a premium total ownership cost. They believe businesses want OEM. They believe they’re preventing consumers from making expensive mistakes. They believe they need to shut out low cost market entrants that begin with a supplemental product. By believe I mean that’s what their gut tells them, and their data analysis also says on some level. Advocating for consumer welfare or improving the industry reputation falls completely flat. They don’t believe it’s what the market wants. Or they just bluster, or look annoyed and make sure that person’s manager fixes the meeting invites.

wraptile 4y ago
> They believe they’re preventing consumers from making expensive mistakes. this is by far the easiest one to trick yourself into believing. Average consumers are pretty dumb and if only you can protect them then it's a win-win!
- moring 4y ago
  I don't think that "makes mistakes -> dumb" is a valid conclusion. People make mistakes based on limited time, limited information, and various other reasons. As an example that isn't too far from third-party ink cartridges, as a user I'd like app store owners to apply quality control measures to the contents of the app store so it doesn't contain malware. Sure, you could argue that users aren't dumb and can decide which apps to install on their own, but in practice the amount of knowledge and time needed to decide whether an app is malware is incredibly high, up to disassembling and analyzing the code. Just to avoid a misunderstanding: I wouldn't actually like third-party ink cartridges to be blocked. But the limited resources of the customer are a problem that should be recognized.
autoexec 4y ago
Do you think they really believe those things or are those just the things they say to convince themselves and each other that what they are doing is fine while deep down they know that it's wrong and that they're acting out of greed and are making the world worse. > Advocating for consumer welfare or improving the industry reputation falls completely flat. They don’t believe it’s what the market wants. Or they just bluster, or look annoyed and make sure that person’s manager fixes the meeting invites. Everybody wants to think of themselves as a good guy which means sometimes they have to come up with insane and unconvincing excuses to justify their evils. They are bound to feel uncomfortable when someone tells them the truth by advocating for the customer. They can still take the money by screwing over other people, but it means they can't do it while pretending that it doesn't make them assholes.
- 1123581321 4y ago
  Yes, there were some true believers (particularly owners of regional distributors.) There were also people who were detached, but for other reasons (work to travel, overwork, weird attitudes due to headcount games, contractors only seeing dollar signs.) There were objections but perennial objectors weren't welcome in these meetings. Successful objections, moral or not, were couched in language of customer personas, market trends, market position relative to competitors, questioning the perceived value of OEM, potential alliances with other manufacturers. When I heard the truth blurted out I don't think it was the actual truth that made them uncomfortable. What was uncomfortable was that a person had gotten into that meeting and did not know how to operate in that world. The time for long, candid talks about what the hell the industry is doing to itself was during dinner later at night--but while some of those conversations probably changed careers long term, they didn't at all change the results the following day.
  - gnramires 4y ago
    Makes you what's possible if most companies were Open Source down to the hardware level. LumenPnP (https://opulo.io/products/lumenpnp https://opulo.io/products/lumenpnp) is fully OSHW, and that I think really aligns the interests of the developer and users. I really dream of a completely open society!
- CPLX 4y ago
  On one hand you have this abstract concept of a diffuse group of people getting a tiny bit worse off, and you’re not totally even sure who they are or if they care that much or notice. On the other hand you have granite countertops, more security for your children’s future, a vacation, increases to your own social status, and higher quality food. It’s pretty easy to see which option we are wired to choose, and which one takes a higher level of personal integrity and effort.
- jcelerier 4y ago
  > Everybody wants to think of themselves as a good guy That's assuming a lot right here. I know way too many people who flourish in being bad (and will you tell so explicitly)

wraptile 4y ago

> They believe they’re preventing consumers from making expensive mistakes. this is by far the easiest one to trick yourself into believing. Average consumers are pretty dumb and if only you can protect them then it's a win-win!

moring 4y ago
I don't think that "makes mistakes -> dumb" is a valid conclusion. People make mistakes based on limited time, limited information, and various other reasons. As an example that isn't too far from third-party ink cartridges, as a user I'd like app store owners to apply quality control measures to the contents of the app store so it doesn't contain malware. Sure, you could argue that users aren't dumb and can decide which apps to install on their own, but in practice the amount of knowledge and time needed to decide whether an app is malware is incredibly high, up to disassembling and analyzing the code. Just to avoid a misunderstanding: I wouldn't actually like third-party ink cartridges to be blocked. But the limited resources of the customer are a problem that should be recognized.

autoexec 4y ago

Do you think they really believe those things or are those just the things they say to convince themselves and each other that what they are doing is fine while deep down they know that it's wrong and that they're acting out of greed and are making the world worse. > Advocating for consumer welfare or improving the industry reputation falls completely flat. They don’t believe it’s what the market wants. Or they just bluster, or look annoyed and make sure that person’s manager fixes the meeting invites. Everybody wants to think of themselves as a good guy which means sometimes they have to come up with insane and unconvincing excuses to justify their evils. They are bound to feel uncomfortable when someone tells them the truth by advocating for the customer. They can still take the money by screwing over other people, but it means they can't do it while pretending that it doesn't make them assholes.

1123581321 4y ago
Yes, there were some true believers (particularly owners of regional distributors.) There were also people who were detached, but for other reasons (work to travel, overwork, weird attitudes due to headcount games, contractors only seeing dollar signs.) There were objections but perennial objectors weren't welcome in these meetings. Successful objections, moral or not, were couched in language of customer personas, market trends, market position relative to competitors, questioning the perceived value of OEM, potential alliances with other manufacturers. When I heard the truth blurted out I don't think it was the actual truth that made them uncomfortable. What was uncomfortable was that a person had gotten into that meeting and did not know how to operate in that world. The time for long, candid talks about what the hell the industry is doing to itself was during dinner later at night--but while some of those conversations probably changed careers long term, they didn't at all change the results the following day.
- gnramires 4y ago
  Makes you what's possible if most companies were Open Source down to the hardware level. LumenPnP (https://opulo.io/products/lumenpnp https://opulo.io/products/lumenpnp) is fully OSHW, and that I think really aligns the interests of the developer and users. I really dream of a completely open society!
CPLX 4y ago
On one hand you have this abstract concept of a diffuse group of people getting a tiny bit worse off, and you’re not totally even sure who they are or if they care that much or notice. On the other hand you have granite countertops, more security for your children’s future, a vacation, increases to your own social status, and higher quality food. It’s pretty easy to see which option we are wired to choose, and which one takes a higher level of personal integrity and effort.
jcelerier 4y ago
> Everybody wants to think of themselves as a good guy That's assuming a lot right here. I know way too many people who flourish in being bad (and will you tell so explicitly)