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I've been feeling the same sentiment as the author. Having worked on 3 sizable React projects now (all started before I arrived), I can only conclude that beyo

I've been feeling the same sentiment as the author. Having worked on 3 sizable React projects now (all started before I arrived), I can only conclude that beyond a toy phase -- once you have many hands working on React and *particularly* once you start managing sizable state -- there is only pain. The most recent case resulted in spending quite a bit of time explaining to a peer why we were experiencing an unexpected side effect and redraw and explaining how `useMemo` and `useCallback` actually need to be used [0] and made me think of Stephen King's Langoliers. It occurred to me that "React is the new IBM" [1] It has become so dominant in the market that no one can get away from it. But that also means that it can no longer innovate. Andrew Clark's twitter post *acknowledging* that signals and fine-grained reactivity would be better for performance but that the React team doesn't care pushed me over the edge of frustration. I think that React finds itself not too far off from where IBM was at the micro-computing revolution. IBM had become too beholden to its market and too arrogant in their own success to see their own downfall. The traffic and feedback on the second article is an indication that there are a lot of folks out there who are really, really dissatisfied with the state of React. [0] https://chrlschn.medium.com/8eb7bb72c87 https://chrlschn.medium.com/8eb7bb72c87 [1] https://chrlschn.medium.com/react-is-the-new-ibm-6af2f4b04e5e https://chrlschn.medium.com/react-is-the-new-ibm-6af2f4b04e5...

bern4444 4y ago
React definitely continues to innovate. Functional components and hooks were a huge innovation to class components and significantly improved the ergonomics of the library. That was only a few years ago. The team is actively working on RSC (react server components) which will have a similarly large impact on react's capabilities. Frameworks like remix and next will be able to leverage and build on this to create even better systems for building apps. The whole signals blow up event is weird to me. Seems to be a loud and extremely small minority making a fuss around it. IMO React continues to dominate over others (Vue, Svelte, Angular, Solid etc) because its just better - it embraces JS (no v-for, ng-for, non JS language) and strictly sticks to the idea that the view is a function of state.
- rk06 4y ago
  All blow up events come from a loud and extremely small minority. But whether they are making noise or signal, does not depend on number of people! React continues to dominate others because it meets baseline criteria for a js framework. And has corporate backing while Vue doesn't. Angular 1 was also popular because it was average js framework with google's backing before angular 2. Implying that React remains popular for purely it's technical merit is utter nonsense. Because if react was really technically better, then no one would have migrated to Vue, solid and svelte or angular for that matter
  - bern4444 4y ago
    > All blow up events come from a loud and extremely small minority. But whether they are making noise or signal, does not depend on number of people! Fair, this instance is 100% noise imo. We're engineers - we should be able to judge when something is silly. > React continues to dominate others because it has corporate backing while Vue doesn't. And angular was popular for the same reason before angular 2. I have never heard anyone in the last few years say react is better because it's backed by FB. I pick it because it embraces JS (unlike Svelte), doesn't reinvent the wheel (ng-for, v-for), and has a track record of maintaining backwards compatibility (unlike Angular re Angular vs Angular 2, hey its google what else should you expect). Class components continue to work 100%. Angular is backed by google - a much bigger company than FB and its nowhere close to as successful. > Implying that React remains popular for purely it's technical merit is pure nonsense. Because if react was really technically better, then no one would have migrates to Vue, solid and svelte or angular for that matter Some companies like to experiment, or have very unique challenges for which they find other tools better. I avoid Angular and Svelte - both have made such odd decisions. Some people do just prefer one tool over another! There will never be any set of capable tools where 100% of people select the same one. That's the variation of life. Per the article's comment on forms and react and the messiness that ensues, well we're engineers. We can't expect a single library to solve every problem. We should be responsible for avoiding bad patterns like throwing from state into react state. It's 100% not necessary and should be kept separate.
    - 4y ago
fidgewidge 4y ago
It's more like React is the MFC to HTML5's Win32. A not very good API with a near monopoly that people spend lots of time wallpapering over with ever more elaborate frameworks that end up being used only for distribution reasons.
- strokirk 4y ago
  It’s a pretty great API, I’d say! The alternatives also have their own warts.
  - fidgewidge 4y ago
    That's a novel take. What justifies Win32's claim to greatness in your eyes? Do you mean by the standard of the time, or even today?
djtango 4y ago
Admittedly I haven't worked on a large multi team react project before but I thought the whole point was that Facebook found React scaled well with teams (vs the state of the art at the time) Not only can you componentise your UI code, but you can componentise your UI system meaning teams can develop independently of each other...
- zelphirkalt 4y ago
  That's not what I see and hear though. People complain often about how complex things become with React and simple things take a long time to set up or develop, compared to rendering a simple template on the server side. Usually people are not FB and people often do not have the same kind of strict development rules or enforced discipline, nor are they as many people as FB. Maybe the FB tool is not right for them.
  - CharlieDigital 4y ago
    Where React usually gets complicated is when non-trivial state gets involved. Once you have state that needs to span your application and prop-drilling becomes too much of a drag, the misalignment between React's "pretend we're going to redraw everything" and "I'm only changing this one field in my state" causes most of the issues with React.
seumars 4y ago
Calling React the next IBM is giving React way more credit than it's worth. Sure, basic knowledge of React will land you a frontend dev job pretty much anywhere in the world. However most of that work will be maintenance. If anything React is the new PHP.
- h9h9h9 4y ago
  Bad analogy. PHP will remain relevant long after React is dead and just a bad memory of the past.
LudwigNagasena 4y ago
Are you saying that React is bad because a Junior Developer cannot bother to think about caching or at least open introductory materials before using a framework? If that's the kind of problems you deal with, that makes React one of the greatest framework ever.
- CharlieDigital 4y ago
  The purpose of a good framework is to make developers productive, regardless of their level of expertise. A junior dev isn't going to be build as fast or as clean as a more experienced dev, but a good framework promotes speed and provides guardrails to prevent mistakes. To that end my experience with React -- same as the author's -- is that React does not have this characteristic and provides many ways to shoot yourself in the foot.

bern4444 4y ago

React definitely continues to innovate. Functional components and hooks were a huge innovation to class components and significantly improved the ergonomics of the library. That was only a few years ago. The team is actively working on RSC (react server components) which will have a similarly large impact on react's capabilities. Frameworks like remix and next will be able to leverage and build on this to create even better systems for building apps. The whole signals blow up event is weird to me. Seems to be a loud and extremely small minority making a fuss around it. IMO React continues to dominate over others (Vue, Svelte, Angular, Solid etc) because its just better - it embraces JS (no v-for, ng-for, non JS language) and strictly sticks to the idea that the view is a function of state.

rk06 4y ago
All blow up events come from a loud and extremely small minority. But whether they are making noise or signal, does not depend on number of people! React continues to dominate others because it meets baseline criteria for a js framework. And has corporate backing while Vue doesn't. Angular 1 was also popular because it was average js framework with google's backing before angular 2. Implying that React remains popular for purely it's technical merit is utter nonsense. Because if react was really technically better, then no one would have migrated to Vue, solid and svelte or angular for that matter
- bern4444 4y ago
  > All blow up events come from a loud and extremely small minority. But whether they are making noise or signal, does not depend on number of people! Fair, this instance is 100% noise imo. We're engineers - we should be able to judge when something is silly. > React continues to dominate others because it has corporate backing while Vue doesn't. And angular was popular for the same reason before angular 2. I have never heard anyone in the last few years say react is better because it's backed by FB. I pick it because it embraces JS (unlike Svelte), doesn't reinvent the wheel (ng-for, v-for), and has a track record of maintaining backwards compatibility (unlike Angular re Angular vs Angular 2, hey its google what else should you expect). Class components continue to work 100%. Angular is backed by google - a much bigger company than FB and its nowhere close to as successful. > Implying that React remains popular for purely it's technical merit is pure nonsense. Because if react was really technically better, then no one would have migrates to Vue, solid and svelte or angular for that matter Some companies like to experiment, or have very unique challenges for which they find other tools better. I avoid Angular and Svelte - both have made such odd decisions. Some people do just prefer one tool over another! There will never be any set of capable tools where 100% of people select the same one. That's the variation of life. Per the article's comment on forms and react and the messiness that ensues, well we're engineers. We can't expect a single library to solve every problem. We should be responsible for avoiding bad patterns like throwing from state into react state. It's 100% not necessary and should be kept separate.
  - 4y ago

fidgewidge 4y ago

It's more like React is the MFC to HTML5's Win32. A not very good API with a near monopoly that people spend lots of time wallpapering over with ever more elaborate frameworks that end up being used only for distribution reasons.

strokirk 4y ago
It’s a pretty great API, I’d say! The alternatives also have their own warts.
- fidgewidge 4y ago
  That's a novel take. What justifies Win32's claim to greatness in your eyes? Do you mean by the standard of the time, or even today?

djtango 4y ago

Admittedly I haven't worked on a large multi team react project before but I thought the whole point was that Facebook found React scaled well with teams (vs the state of the art at the time) Not only can you componentise your UI code, but you can componentise your UI system meaning teams can develop independently of each other...

zelphirkalt 4y ago
That's not what I see and hear though. People complain often about how complex things become with React and simple things take a long time to set up or develop, compared to rendering a simple template on the server side. Usually people are not FB and people often do not have the same kind of strict development rules or enforced discipline, nor are they as many people as FB. Maybe the FB tool is not right for them.
- CharlieDigital 4y ago
  Where React usually gets complicated is when non-trivial state gets involved. Once you have state that needs to span your application and prop-drilling becomes too much of a drag, the misalignment between React's "pretend we're going to redraw everything" and "I'm only changing this one field in my state" causes most of the issues with React.

seumars 4y ago

Calling React the next IBM is giving React way more credit than it's worth. Sure, basic knowledge of React will land you a frontend dev job pretty much anywhere in the world. However most of that work will be maintenance. If anything React is the new PHP.

h9h9h9 4y ago
Bad analogy. PHP will remain relevant long after React is dead and just a bad memory of the past.

LudwigNagasena 4y ago

Are you saying that React is bad because a Junior Developer cannot bother to think about caching or at least open introductory materials before using a framework? If that's the kind of problems you deal with, that makes React one of the greatest framework ever.

CharlieDigital 4y ago
The purpose of a good framework is to make developers productive, regardless of their level of expertise. A junior dev isn't going to be build as fast or as clean as a more experienced dev, but a good framework promotes speed and provides guardrails to prevent mistakes. To that end my experience with React -- same as the author's -- is that React does not have this characteristic and provides many ways to shoot yourself in the foot.