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As a French citizen, I find it unsurprising that the usual top comments here are all about numbers. Life expectancy going up, do your part, work work work. Tha

by cmehdy 4y ago

As a French citizen, I find it unsurprising that the usual top comments here are all about numbers. Life expectancy going up, do your part, work work work. That people are angry is not about the damn numbers. It's about the attitude of a political class that had private restaurant dinners behind closed doors during lockdown times where the population was fined for being out walking their dogs, it's about a president that's been deliberately calling left-leaning ideas of the younger generations about ecology and equality "extreme-left" while joyfully siding persistently with the actual parties created by fascists, it's about a reform that comes in with a justification of a deficit that was literally created by giving money to large companies and rich people in the form of tax deductions, it's about some of his ministers who take part in all sorts of horrible things and continue to go unpunished, it's about people asking for compassion towards difficult jobs more than for their own selves, and I could go on...

aluminussoma 4y ago
Thank you for adding this perspective. The news reports we receive do not provide this context so it is easy to think it is only about numbers.
- cmehdy 4y ago
  Thanks. I didn't even get into the minister pushing for the reform doing crosswords during a parliamentary session on his subject, the inflation absolutely exploding in France, the surge of students falling below poverty lines and needing food stamps worse than during covid, the ministers genuinely advising the population to "wear turtlenecks during the winter", the abuse of 49.3 article (similar to Canada's notwithstanding clause) exactly 10 times in order to push laws that were not democratically agreed upon, the fact that the prime minister got a football t-shirt for Christmas that had that very same "49.3" number on it and really appreciated it. Or the political failure when handling the CCC (citizen's climate convention) that Macron himself created to satisfy people's expectations, and which actually delivered amazingly as a panel of 150 citizens representing all parts of France giving educated and actionable input on what the country should do. The energy prices putting small business owners on the street in a country where nuclear power could have pretty much carried the load but has been grossly mistreated (admittedly by nearly every single president in a long time). The recent Uber papers, where Macron was directly cited, at a crucial time where now most poor jobs in France have literally been called "uberized" in pejorative terms. And that his party calls for "decency" in the mist of all of this. French people aren't dumb, contrary to what the sneering suits might believe. This was not only poorly timed, but absolutely tonedeaf by the government, and revealing of the amount of contempt they have for people who at a majority reluctantly elected Macron. Some sources: Students hardships: https://www.euronews.com/2022/12/23/inflation-crisis-french-students-struggle-to-survive https://www.euronews.com/2022/12/23/inflation-crisis-french-... Dussopt and his crosswords: https://todaytimeslive.com/world/219510.html https://todaytimeslive.com/world/219510.html 49.3 t-shirt: https://24newsrecorder.com/politics/226033 https://24newsrecorder.com/politics/226033 Wear turtlenecks: https://www.thelocal.fr/20220927/french-minister-advises-wear-a-turtleneck-this-winter/ https://www.thelocal.fr/20220927/french-minister-advises-wea... CCC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_Convention_for_Climate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_Convention_for_Climat... CCC: https://www.publicdeliberation.net/the-promises-and-disappointments-of-the-french-citizens-convention-for-climate/ https://www.publicdeliberation.net/the-promises-and-disappoi... Uber papers: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022/jul/10/emmanuel-macron-secretly-aided-uber-lobbying-drive-france-leak-reveals https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022/jul/10/emmanuel-macron...
  - gabaix 4y ago
    This comment is good illustration of why most democratic gouvernements lose support over time. The media collect a list of disappointing behaviors, social media push said content to disgruntled citizens, and the government loses all credibility over time. The ability for a government to not slip is crucial for slowing the decay.
    - cmehdy 4y ago
      What's your point? That seeing how we're getting screwed is bad for us? How about having the government actually do better and be accountable for it instead? How about Macron promising to follow the CCC's recommendations on dealing with the climate crisis and instead throwing it all in the trash? That you attribute my remarks to some kind of misled social media craze is what's actually messed up in this exchange. And as far as I can tell, the guardian or euro news are far from being simple tiktok ads, but people who refuse to see things will continue to find arguments in bad faith to do so.
gwright 4y ago
> deficit that was literally created by giving money to large companies and rich people in the form of tax deductions, I have no particular knowledge of French macro economic policies, but a tax deduction is not "giving money". It is "not taking money". Your framing assumes that corporate or individual earnings belong to the government and the government can decide to allow the money to be "given" to the taxpayer. Whether that is an appropriate arrangement of private property rights and the relationship between the people and the government is a hotly debated topic, to put it mildly.
- cmehdy 4y ago
  Not taking money that otherwise would be taken absolutely is giving money. Let me know if the government decides to absolve you of all taxes if you don't think at the end of your year that you've been given money. Also that's conveniently the narrative that Macron's party would adopt were it the other way (read: when they "give" a one-off cheque to students or poor people). Accounting tricks have broad shoulders to take the load off the political bullshit of our era.
  - crazygringo 4y ago
    > Let me know if the government decides to absolve you of all taxes if you don't think at the end of your year that you've been given money. I... wouldn't? It just wouldn't have been taken from me. Why would I think it would have been given to me? I'm perfectly aware it's money I earned in the first place. In contrast with stimulus checks, for example, which were given, because even if you earned no money at all you still got them.
    - gruez 4y ago
      >In contrast with stimulus checks, for example, which were given, because even if you earned no money at all you still got them. At the end of the day, there's no difference from a fiscal perspective between handing a company a $1M check and giving them a $1M tax deduction. While I agree that this is technically a distinction (ie. tax deductions require a tax liability to actually be used, as opposed to cash which can be spent as-is), I don't think it's relevant here because the companies were already known to be making money. Even if they had a bad year and the tax credits could only be used on profits, they'd likely turn a profit sooner or later.
gruez 4y ago
>That people are angry is not about the damn numbers. It's about the attitude of a political class [...] You say it's "not about the damn numbers", but what does that mean? Does the underlying problem with the numbers not exist? Would the french pension system be fine without such reforms? If not, and reforms are needed, why are is stuff boiling over now? Sure, all the things you listed are legitimate grievances, but it seems counterproductive to get mad at politicians doing painful stuff that needs to be done. It's like getting in a fight with your spouse about how they're "controlling" or whatever, when your house is on fire and you need to evacuate. The only sensible interpretation I can think of is that the people think the reforms are not warranted or there's a better reform that's not being considered, and that's the straw that broke the camel's back and caused people to come out and protest. If that's the case, I wouldn't exactly frame that as "not about the damn numbers".
- cmehdy 4y ago
  First off it doesn't need to be done. You're taking a statement from the government as an axiom when it's not one. Secondly, the attitude matters. There is ni trust in the government to not swindle the population, mainly due to Macron's track record and the other mentioned things in my messages. Basically it is not about the numbers, it's about a well crafted narrative led by people who have done everything to wither away the trust given to them, time and time again.
AYBABTME 4y ago
This is all dramatic and very tragic, but the numbers don't make sense. It's not something where passion should win over reason. Current and future generations will be screwed if this pension system isn't reformed. If anything Macron deserves applauses for committing political suicide for the greater good
- 0xDEF 4y ago
  He is not committing political suicide. He has always been unpopular but the only alternative is the far-right.
  - ephimetheus 4y ago
    Which is what worries me. A far right government in France might spell doom for the EU
- p4bl0 4y ago
  This is not true. Numbers aren't alarming at all. And there are many solutions that could be deployed if it were the case. It is a matter of political choice.
- cmehdy 4y ago
  Nobody is getting screwed if this isn't getting reformed, the central committee dedicated to making projections for retirement funds projected a mild deficit by 2070 in only 1 out of 4 of its scenarios. The government gave this money away to the already rich and is trying to bullshit everybody else that "there's no other way". People have had enough of this behaviour, and the strikes on a scale unseen since 95 show it.
mrfumier 4y ago
As a french citizen, I agree it's not about numbers. If young people were understanding the numbers, they would go on streets to push for the reform to be adopted. The problem is, there is an extreme left group, dreaming of the big night of uprising and revolution to install a communist government in France. So they take every opportunity to block the country and mess everything up, even though they're not even concerned by the reform themselves. There is a silent majority who is in favor of the reform, which will eventually pass, like always.
- cmehdy 4y ago
  Your contempt won't do much in the face of an actual majority voicing its disagreement (you know, the majority that Macron did not deserve but got because people feared the extreme right). And your numbers would be wrong unless you chose to ignore the Cor. Either you don't understand the risks of disregarding the political unrest or you actively want that unrest. Sorry but I'm not keen on having an extreme right president at the next election myself. https://www.cor-retraites.fr/node/595 https://www.cor-retraites.fr/node/595
HaixuanTao 4y ago
> left-leaning ideas of the younger generations about ecology and equality "extreme-left" Whatever the labelling you want to use, but we know for a fact that extreme ecology is going to destroy our country. We saw what happened with French nuclear, we are seeing it in the EU car industry, we are seeing it in French housing. We already know that radical ecology is going to bring social unrest. That the first to suffer is going to be poorest people. > deficit that was literally created by giving money to large companies and rich people in the form of tax deductions. We are still one of the most tax heavy country with the most social contribution in Europe and in the world. Macron is just trying to level the playing field and make France attractive. > it's about people asking for compassion towards difficult jobs more than for their own selves, and I could go on... After this reform, we will still be one of the most generous country in the world even for pension and social net even among Europe and even more worldwide.
- pixelfarmer 4y ago
  > Macron is just trying to level the playing field and make France attractive. ... to whom? > After this reform, we will still be one of the most generous country in the world even for pension and social net even among Europe and even more worldwide. Not sure why I'm thinking about a frog being slowly boiled alive.
  - HaixuanTao 4y ago
    > ... to whom? Tax apply to income generating people by design. You pay very little tax in France if you're poor (as a percentage of income). Macron reduced tax on what is comparable: corporate tax, flat tax on certain income such as dividend. Now, did he go overboard? I will let you judge: https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/corporate-tax-rate https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/corporate-tax-rate with https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/social-security-rate https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/social-security-ra... France has been very generous during COVID, has been very generous during the Energy Crisis with the `bouclier tarifaire` that has helped most the poorest. We really have to put that in a world context where most does not get anything during time like this. Can we really say that France is boiling alive its people?
rldjbpin 4y ago
you have more at stake in the topic than i do, but as someone still affected by the strikes, i got a few words to retort: if the way to go about protesting is to choose days as per convenience and to have barbeque on the tram tracks, then feel free to do this on a weekly basis. meanwhile, the people on the grind are being affected by disruption of essential public utilities. just like the roller-skating phenomenon mentioned by another poster in the thread, it is only reinforcing the belief of not relying on others in society for your day-to-day needs. the way people go about it in this instance is not garnering any sympathy by those who need the most support in society. EDIT: grammar
- cmehdy 4y ago
  You're so thoroughly wrong that it's funny: literally a huge majority of French people are agreeing with the movement despite the hindrances.

by cmehdy 4y ago

aluminussoma 4y ago

Thank you for adding this perspective. The news reports we receive do not provide this context so it is easy to think it is only about numbers.

cmehdy 4y ago
Thanks. I didn't even get into the minister pushing for the reform doing crosswords during a parliamentary session on his subject, the inflation absolutely exploding in France, the surge of students falling below poverty lines and needing food stamps worse than during covid, the ministers genuinely advising the population to "wear turtlenecks during the winter", the abuse of 49.3 article (similar to Canada's notwithstanding clause) exactly 10 times in order to push laws that were not democratically agreed upon, the fact that the prime minister got a football t-shirt for Christmas that had that very same "49.3" number on it and really appreciated it. Or the political failure when handling the CCC (citizen's climate convention) that Macron himself created to satisfy people's expectations, and which actually delivered amazingly as a panel of 150 citizens representing all parts of France giving educated and actionable input on what the country should do. The energy prices putting small business owners on the street in a country where nuclear power could have pretty much carried the load but has been grossly mistreated (admittedly by nearly every single president in a long time). The recent Uber papers, where Macron was directly cited, at a crucial time where now most poor jobs in France have literally been called "uberized" in pejorative terms. And that his party calls for "decency" in the mist of all of this. French people aren't dumb, contrary to what the sneering suits might believe. This was not only poorly timed, but absolutely tonedeaf by the government, and revealing of the amount of contempt they have for people who at a majority reluctantly elected Macron. Some sources: Students hardships: https://www.euronews.com/2022/12/23/inflation-crisis-french-students-struggle-to-survive https://www.euronews.com/2022/12/23/inflation-crisis-french-... Dussopt and his crosswords: https://todaytimeslive.com/world/219510.html https://todaytimeslive.com/world/219510.html 49.3 t-shirt: https://24newsrecorder.com/politics/226033 https://24newsrecorder.com/politics/226033 Wear turtlenecks: https://www.thelocal.fr/20220927/french-minister-advises-wear-a-turtleneck-this-winter/ https://www.thelocal.fr/20220927/french-minister-advises-wea... CCC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_Convention_for_Climate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_Convention_for_Climat... CCC: https://www.publicdeliberation.net/the-promises-and-disappointments-of-the-french-citizens-convention-for-climate/ https://www.publicdeliberation.net/the-promises-and-disappoi... Uber papers: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022/jul/10/emmanuel-macron-secretly-aided-uber-lobbying-drive-france-leak-reveals https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022/jul/10/emmanuel-macron...
- gabaix 4y ago
  This comment is good illustration of why most democratic gouvernements lose support over time. The media collect a list of disappointing behaviors, social media push said content to disgruntled citizens, and the government loses all credibility over time. The ability for a government to not slip is crucial for slowing the decay.
  - cmehdy 4y ago
    What's your point? That seeing how we're getting screwed is bad for us? How about having the government actually do better and be accountable for it instead? How about Macron promising to follow the CCC's recommendations on dealing with the climate crisis and instead throwing it all in the trash? That you attribute my remarks to some kind of misled social media craze is what's actually messed up in this exchange. And as far as I can tell, the guardian or euro news are far from being simple tiktok ads, but people who refuse to see things will continue to find arguments in bad faith to do so.

gwright 4y ago

> deficit that was literally created by giving money to large companies and rich people in the form of tax deductions, I have no particular knowledge of French macro economic policies, but a tax deduction is not "giving money". It is "not taking money". Your framing assumes that corporate or individual earnings belong to the government and the government can decide to allow the money to be "given" to the taxpayer. Whether that is an appropriate arrangement of private property rights and the relationship between the people and the government is a hotly debated topic, to put it mildly.

cmehdy 4y ago
Not taking money that otherwise would be taken absolutely is giving money. Let me know if the government decides to absolve you of all taxes if you don't think at the end of your year that you've been given money. Also that's conveniently the narrative that Macron's party would adopt were it the other way (read: when they "give" a one-off cheque to students or poor people). Accounting tricks have broad shoulders to take the load off the political bullshit of our era.
- crazygringo 4y ago
  > Let me know if the government decides to absolve you of all taxes if you don't think at the end of your year that you've been given money. I... wouldn't? It just wouldn't have been taken from me. Why would I think it would have been given to me? I'm perfectly aware it's money I earned in the first place. In contrast with stimulus checks, for example, which were given, because even if you earned no money at all you still got them.
  - gruez 4y ago
    >In contrast with stimulus checks, for example, which were given, because even if you earned no money at all you still got them. At the end of the day, there's no difference from a fiscal perspective between handing a company a $1M check and giving them a $1M tax deduction. While I agree that this is technically a distinction (ie. tax deductions require a tax liability to actually be used, as opposed to cash which can be spent as-is), I don't think it's relevant here because the companies were already known to be making money. Even if they had a bad year and the tax credits could only be used on profits, they'd likely turn a profit sooner or later.

gruez 4y ago

>That people are angry is not about the damn numbers. It's about the attitude of a political class [...] You say it's "not about the damn numbers", but what does that mean? Does the underlying problem with the numbers not exist? Would the french pension system be fine without such reforms? If not, and reforms are needed, why are is stuff boiling over now? Sure, all the things you listed are legitimate grievances, but it seems counterproductive to get mad at politicians doing painful stuff that needs to be done. It's like getting in a fight with your spouse about how they're "controlling" or whatever, when your house is on fire and you need to evacuate. The only sensible interpretation I can think of is that the people think the reforms are not warranted or there's a better reform that's not being considered, and that's the straw that broke the camel's back and caused people to come out and protest. If that's the case, I wouldn't exactly frame that as "not about the damn numbers".

cmehdy 4y ago
First off it doesn't need to be done. You're taking a statement from the government as an axiom when it's not one. Secondly, the attitude matters. There is ni trust in the government to not swindle the population, mainly due to Macron's track record and the other mentioned things in my messages. Basically it is not about the numbers, it's about a well crafted narrative led by people who have done everything to wither away the trust given to them, time and time again.

AYBABTME 4y ago

This is all dramatic and very tragic, but the numbers don't make sense. It's not something where passion should win over reason. Current and future generations will be screwed if this pension system isn't reformed. If anything Macron deserves applauses for committing political suicide for the greater good

0xDEF 4y ago
He is not committing political suicide. He has always been unpopular but the only alternative is the far-right.
- ephimetheus 4y ago
  Which is what worries me. A far right government in France might spell doom for the EU
p4bl0 4y ago
This is not true. Numbers aren't alarming at all. And there are many solutions that could be deployed if it were the case. It is a matter of political choice.
cmehdy 4y ago
Nobody is getting screwed if this isn't getting reformed, the central committee dedicated to making projections for retirement funds projected a mild deficit by 2070 in only 1 out of 4 of its scenarios. The government gave this money away to the already rich and is trying to bullshit everybody else that "there's no other way". People have had enough of this behaviour, and the strikes on a scale unseen since 95 show it.

mrfumier 4y ago

As a french citizen, I agree it's not about numbers. If young people were understanding the numbers, they would go on streets to push for the reform to be adopted. The problem is, there is an extreme left group, dreaming of the big night of uprising and revolution to install a communist government in France. So they take every opportunity to block the country and mess everything up, even though they're not even concerned by the reform themselves. There is a silent majority who is in favor of the reform, which will eventually pass, like always.

cmehdy 4y ago
Your contempt won't do much in the face of an actual majority voicing its disagreement (you know, the majority that Macron did not deserve but got because people feared the extreme right). And your numbers would be wrong unless you chose to ignore the Cor. Either you don't understand the risks of disregarding the political unrest or you actively want that unrest. Sorry but I'm not keen on having an extreme right president at the next election myself. https://www.cor-retraites.fr/node/595 https://www.cor-retraites.fr/node/595

HaixuanTao 4y ago

> left-leaning ideas of the younger generations about ecology and equality "extreme-left" Whatever the labelling you want to use, but we know for a fact that extreme ecology is going to destroy our country. We saw what happened with French nuclear, we are seeing it in the EU car industry, we are seeing it in French housing. We already know that radical ecology is going to bring social unrest. That the first to suffer is going to be poorest people. > deficit that was literally created by giving money to large companies and rich people in the form of tax deductions. We are still one of the most tax heavy country with the most social contribution in Europe and in the world. Macron is just trying to level the playing field and make France attractive. > it's about people asking for compassion towards difficult jobs more than for their own selves, and I could go on... After this reform, we will still be one of the most generous country in the world even for pension and social net even among Europe and even more worldwide.

pixelfarmer 4y ago
> Macron is just trying to level the playing field and make France attractive. ... to whom? > After this reform, we will still be one of the most generous country in the world even for pension and social net even among Europe and even more worldwide. Not sure why I'm thinking about a frog being slowly boiled alive.
- HaixuanTao 4y ago
  > ... to whom? Tax apply to income generating people by design. You pay very little tax in France if you're poor (as a percentage of income). Macron reduced tax on what is comparable: corporate tax, flat tax on certain income such as dividend. Now, did he go overboard? I will let you judge: https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/corporate-tax-rate https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/corporate-tax-rate with https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/social-security-rate https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/social-security-ra... France has been very generous during COVID, has been very generous during the Energy Crisis with the `bouclier tarifaire` that has helped most the poorest. We really have to put that in a world context where most does not get anything during time like this. Can we really say that France is boiling alive its people?

rldjbpin 4y ago

you have more at stake in the topic than i do, but as someone still affected by the strikes, i got a few words to retort: if the way to go about protesting is to choose days as per convenience and to have barbeque on the tram tracks, then feel free to do this on a weekly basis. meanwhile, the people on the grind are being affected by disruption of essential public utilities. just like the roller-skating phenomenon mentioned by another poster in the thread, it is only reinforcing the belief of not relying on others in society for your day-to-day needs. the way people go about it in this instance is not garnering any sympathy by those who need the most support in society. EDIT: grammar

cmehdy 4y ago
You're so thoroughly wrong that it's funny: literally a huge majority of French people are agreeing with the movement despite the hindrances.