7 ms·

https://archive.ph/34YV8 https://archive.ph/34YV8 My take: we've asked the state to supplant the good part of old support networks (economic and social support

by ovi256 4y ago

https://archive.ph/34YV8 https://archive.ph/34YV8 My take: we've asked the state to supplant the good part of old support networks (economic and social support through welfare), and hoped it wouldn't do what we didn't like about those support networks (enforce social conformity, now with networked computers). Turns out the state likes power and will take over all available mechanisms if we let it! Why are we perpetually surprised

Dalewyn 4y ago
[flagged]
- olliecornelia 4y ago
  Who said that, somebody with dementia?
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    I think it was Ron Swanson as a joke.
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
    President Ronald Reagan.[1] [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCedOQJ0ZEA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCedOQJ0ZEA
    - pc86 4y ago
      We would have also accepted "yes."
      - Dalewyn 4y ago
        Well, you are clearly not a man of culture.
    - jtbayly 4y ago
      No he didn't. He said, "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are 'I'm from the government, and I'm here to help.'" Perhaps you didn't mean to, but your comment implies that Reagan said the opposite of what he actually said.
- andrelaszlo 4y ago
  "We're from the factory and we've come to play"
- akiselev 4y ago
  I’m from FTX and I’m here to make you money.
- p0pcult 4y ago
  Tell me you know nothing about economics or policy, without telling me you know nothing about economic or policy.
kardianos 4y ago
Which is why socialism trends to authoritarianism in practice. Freedom requires keeping the responsibility, duties, and outcomes clustered together as tightly as possible. If I break it, it affects me.
- Z7YCx5ieof4Std 4y ago
  Same as conservatism
  - soco 4y ago
    Uninvolved citizens lead to authoritarianism. Either some "enlightened leader" will take over the conservatives, or some apparatchik system will take over the socialism... or any other forms of soul- and life-crushing abominations just waiting to take over.
- dbingham 4y ago
  The United States is arguably one of the least "socialist" of the developed countries and by far one of the worst for surveillance and authoritarianism. Indeed it's on the cusp of a full scale fascist take over. This isn't nearly as simple as "socialism trends toward authoritarianism". Which let's also clarify what we're calling "socialism" here. In this case we using it to describe having the government provide a social safety net. All too often "socialism" gets applied as a blanket term for "any government provided service" which obfuscates the actual issues rather than clarifying anything. It just makes the whole conversation devolve into a pointless ideological battle.
  - rendall 4y ago
    > it's on the cusp of a full scale fascist take over Not really. Or, rather, that claim is being used as justification for overreach and power grabs from the same authoritarians who claim to be against fascism.
    - mkmk3 4y ago
      "No, but yes, because it's a different unnamed party than the one I imagine you intended"?
m0llusk 4y ago
Sounds like a problem related to means tested benefits which could to some extent be avoided by transitioning to a universal basic income which has no such strings for manipulating behavior.
mytailorisrich 4y ago
If you read between the lines of the article the root of the issue is not that but rather the destabilising effect of large numbers of immigrants.
- Loic 4y ago
  Sorry but no. The root of the issue is: "The perception of widespread welfare fraud has empowered Jacobsen to establish one of the most sophisticated and far-reaching fraud detection systems in the world." Please note the clear wording: "The perception ...". The far-right/populist in the EU is very good at using such perception to increase surveillance and control.
  - mytailorisrich 4y ago
    Where does this perception come from? And why has it become such an issue? Again it is largely because large numbers of immigrants have a destabilising effect on society, which fuels resentment and at least the perception that the national welfare system is being too generous and abused by immigrants, which in turn leads to politicians calling for more restrictions and controls, etc. It's the same across Europe and it's not helpful to blame the far right for this. The far right only uses existing concerns to its advantage like all political parties do, especially when other parties sometimes refuse to acknowledge those concerns.
    - ceejayoz 4y ago
      > Where does this perception come from? From the same folks who benefit from that perception. > The far right only uses existing concerns No, they're happy to invent/exaggerate concerns. (As, to be clear, are other parts of the political spectrum.)
      - Spivak 4y ago
        Yeah, you can't turn on the news for two seconds in the US without "Can you believe that thing that doesn't happen could be happening in your community? Here today is senior speculative analyst and lead fearcaster at The America is Great Heritage Foundadtion."

by ovi256 4y ago

Dalewyn 4y ago

[flagged]

olliecornelia 4y ago
Who said that, somebody with dementia?
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  I think it was Ron Swanson as a joke.
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  President Ronald Reagan.[1] [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCedOQJ0ZEA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCedOQJ0ZEA
  - pc86 4y ago
    We would have also accepted "yes."
    - Dalewyn 4y ago
      Well, you are clearly not a man of culture.
  - jtbayly 4y ago
    No he didn't. He said, "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are 'I'm from the government, and I'm here to help.'" Perhaps you didn't mean to, but your comment implies that Reagan said the opposite of what he actually said.
andrelaszlo 4y ago
"We're from the factory and we've come to play"
akiselev 4y ago
I’m from FTX and I’m here to make you money.
p0pcult 4y ago
Tell me you know nothing about economics or policy, without telling me you know nothing about economic or policy.

kardianos 4y ago

Which is why socialism trends to authoritarianism in practice. Freedom requires keeping the responsibility, duties, and outcomes clustered together as tightly as possible. If I break it, it affects me.

Z7YCx5ieof4Std 4y ago
Same as conservatism
- soco 4y ago
  Uninvolved citizens lead to authoritarianism. Either some "enlightened leader" will take over the conservatives, or some apparatchik system will take over the socialism... or any other forms of soul- and life-crushing abominations just waiting to take over.
dbingham 4y ago
The United States is arguably one of the least "socialist" of the developed countries and by far one of the worst for surveillance and authoritarianism. Indeed it's on the cusp of a full scale fascist take over. This isn't nearly as simple as "socialism trends toward authoritarianism". Which let's also clarify what we're calling "socialism" here. In this case we using it to describe having the government provide a social safety net. All too often "socialism" gets applied as a blanket term for "any government provided service" which obfuscates the actual issues rather than clarifying anything. It just makes the whole conversation devolve into a pointless ideological battle.
- rendall 4y ago
  > it's on the cusp of a full scale fascist take over Not really. Or, rather, that claim is being used as justification for overreach and power grabs from the same authoritarians who claim to be against fascism.
  - mkmk3 4y ago
    "No, but yes, because it's a different unnamed party than the one I imagine you intended"?

m0llusk 4y ago

Sounds like a problem related to means tested benefits which could to some extent be avoided by transitioning to a universal basic income which has no such strings for manipulating behavior.

mytailorisrich 4y ago

If you read between the lines of the article the root of the issue is not that but rather the destabilising effect of large numbers of immigrants.

Loic 4y ago
Sorry but no. The root of the issue is: "The perception of widespread welfare fraud has empowered Jacobsen to establish one of the most sophisticated and far-reaching fraud detection systems in the world." Please note the clear wording: "The perception ...". The far-right/populist in the EU is very good at using such perception to increase surveillance and control.
- mytailorisrich 4y ago
  Where does this perception come from? And why has it become such an issue? Again it is largely because large numbers of immigrants have a destabilising effect on society, which fuels resentment and at least the perception that the national welfare system is being too generous and abused by immigrants, which in turn leads to politicians calling for more restrictions and controls, etc. It's the same across Europe and it's not helpful to blame the far right for this. The far right only uses existing concerns to its advantage like all political parties do, especially when other parties sometimes refuse to acknowledge those concerns.
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    > Where does this perception come from? From the same folks who benefit from that perception. > The far right only uses existing concerns No, they're happy to invent/exaggerate concerns. (As, to be clear, are other parts of the political spectrum.)
    - Spivak 4y ago
      Yeah, you can't turn on the news for two seconds in the US without "Can you believe that thing that doesn't happen could be happening in your community? Here today is senior speculative analyst and lead fearcaster at The America is Great Heritage Foundadtion."