4 ms·

>... I really don't get the hatred. The hatred pretty much comes directly from the fact that as developers we are not the customer, just the user. What do dev

by harry8 4y ago

>... I really don't get the hatred. The hatred pretty much comes directly from the fact that as developers we are not the customer, just the user. What do developers want? Not to wait for flipping ever on every damn mouse click. To be as fast and minimal as possible. Stay out of the way so I can get work done. What does the customer (the person who selects the product and signs away company $ for it) To "manage" developers with more of the latest utter bullcrap management cult incantations that are fundamentally useless while being time expensive to developers who have just a little bit of talent. Kanban. What the actual f&^k? Seriously. Does it cost develeoper time? How much? Is it worth that time? So yeah, bits of jira as a bug tracker were designed ok, then made worse and worse and worse and slower to run and worse I have to do what now? and slower and worse and what else is there non-atlassian like literally anything else is worth a shot. Years ago in a fit of "do something about the misery" I looked at the atlassian website, saw "contact the founders" and thought I'd let them know how much worse this crap was getting and how much I didn't like putting up with it as a user. Some flunky created a goddamn jira ticket, then closed it! Never seen by the founders. Being an angry idiot I sent another one filing a bug that "contact the founders" is not seen by the founders so is wholly dishonest. You can guess how that changed everything. They don't and didn't care. They hate me and my kind is the only reasonable inference I can make. What am I meant to do? Turn the other cheek so they can make more money kicking me in the shins? Yeah so there's one place the hate comes from. We are forced to use a product made by a company who hates us. Hopefully that clears it up one perspective for you. Others may see things differently of course.

onethought 4y ago
> What do developers want? Linear (linear.app)
- andrekandre 4y ago
  hmm this product looks pretty good, and it even has a native-ish mac app (i really dislike having to use jira in a browser and juggle even more tabs) https://linear.app/ https://linear.app/
killjoywashere 4y ago
I oversee multiple teams and have one R&D team that I built. Hired every person. They are all far better coders than I. But I’m the outward face negotiating for resources. And my team using Jira helps me get them resources. I use Jira with them. I’m also pulling tasks across the board. The brutal reality is it’s my reputation that brings in money and resources. I need to effectively estimate what we can do. And Jira really helps with that. The other teams I oversee use project management tooling too. And I see them. I’m here to tell you there are SOTA companies, led by engineers, that use Gantt charts. I used to think the anti-Jira, anti-management crowd was inherently right. Now I’m quite a bit more skeptical of those views.
- aato 4y ago
  Can you elaborate on how Jira helps you estimate?
  - heisenbit 4y ago
    If you have good developer providing honest estimates, no data protection concerns and they diligently provide actuals agile tooling like in Jira can provide great results. But that all depends on culture. The poster seems to be an engaged manager, pays attention to the data and uses it in a sane way and has hired a group of strong developers. This is not your average setup…
    - re-thc 4y ago
      It's hard to tell. How does someone truly know if the estimates are honest? It's more like the manager "assumes" it's right and fine.
      - killjoywashere 4y ago
        The manager does not assume. OKRs are made or not. The delta is measured. Repeat.
        4y ago
newswasboring 4y ago
You've written a lot but I don't see what the actual complaints are. Is it just that it's slow af?
- harry8 4y ago
  Lucky you, you've never used it. Slow, difficult to use, packed full of features you'd rather never have heard of that are utterly useless to getting useful things done that also persistently get in your way, slow you down, make the user interface even more difficult and are the pointy end of management idiotic policy wasting your time in the name of efficiency or whatever the hell idiot managers think they're doing with that garbage. (Not every manager is an idiot but all of them are convinced it's not them and they way they do it is just fine, "So we're updating the workflow...") Jira used to have lots of distracting "opportunities to upgrade" to additional parallel product. Do they still? Flashing notifications that when you clicked them interrupting what you were doing because it's got urgent vibes all over it, it was "you should buy this other thing!" Repeatedly. Yes and I hated myself every time while I trained myself in the knowledge that "Jira important notification means ignore" Great lesson for your team w.r.t. a bug tracker, huh? Pick 100 things you wanted improved about it, limit yourself to just your top 100, Atlassian did absolutely none of those and yet made them all worse. Every year. And I'm sure it makes good business sense. They know who is signing their cheques, that is who they care about. And I'm also sure they're very relaxed about how developers loathe them, discount me totally and look at the rest of the comments or any time it comes up. That's their right. They can laugh at us all the way to the bank. If you had more money than your great-grand children could spend in lifetime of Brewster splurges why would you care that your users hate you? You've got far more important toys to play with.
ozim 4y ago
I believe misery for Atlassian products were mostly self inflicted by companies that insisted on having it on-perm and then not giving a damn about upgrades and not giving a damn about resources to maintain it. I work with JIRA cloud for 8 years now and while there are hiccups it just works.
- Kelteseth 4y ago
  We use selfhosted Gitlab and I do regularly report bugs in the Qt bugtracker that uses JIRA. GitLab is light years ahead of JIRA for even the basic task like adding a links, images or searching for issues. The UI is slow and cumbersome to work with.
- sgt 4y ago
  It's slow though. Our on-prem Jira was much faster than the cloud one.

by harry8 4y ago

onethought 4y ago

> What do developers want? Linear (linear.app)

andrekandre 4y ago
hmm this product looks pretty good, and it even has a native-ish mac app (i really dislike having to use jira in a browser and juggle even more tabs) https://linear.app/ https://linear.app/

killjoywashere 4y ago

I oversee multiple teams and have one R&D team that I built. Hired every person. They are all far better coders than I. But I’m the outward face negotiating for resources. And my team using Jira helps me get them resources. I use Jira with them. I’m also pulling tasks across the board. The brutal reality is it’s my reputation that brings in money and resources. I need to effectively estimate what we can do. And Jira really helps with that. The other teams I oversee use project management tooling too. And I see them. I’m here to tell you there are SOTA companies, led by engineers, that use Gantt charts. I used to think the anti-Jira, anti-management crowd was inherently right. Now I’m quite a bit more skeptical of those views.

aato 4y ago
Can you elaborate on how Jira helps you estimate?
- heisenbit 4y ago
  If you have good developer providing honest estimates, no data protection concerns and they diligently provide actuals agile tooling like in Jira can provide great results. But that all depends on culture. The poster seems to be an engaged manager, pays attention to the data and uses it in a sane way and has hired a group of strong developers. This is not your average setup…
  - re-thc 4y ago
    It's hard to tell. How does someone truly know if the estimates are honest? It's more like the manager "assumes" it's right and fine.
    - killjoywashere 4y ago
      The manager does not assume. OKRs are made or not. The delta is measured. Repeat.
      - 4y ago

newswasboring 4y ago

You've written a lot but I don't see what the actual complaints are. Is it just that it's slow af?

harry8 4y ago
Lucky you, you've never used it. Slow, difficult to use, packed full of features you'd rather never have heard of that are utterly useless to getting useful things done that also persistently get in your way, slow you down, make the user interface even more difficult and are the pointy end of management idiotic policy wasting your time in the name of efficiency or whatever the hell idiot managers think they're doing with that garbage. (Not every manager is an idiot but all of them are convinced it's not them and they way they do it is just fine, "So we're updating the workflow...") Jira used to have lots of distracting "opportunities to upgrade" to additional parallel product. Do they still? Flashing notifications that when you clicked them interrupting what you were doing because it's got urgent vibes all over it, it was "you should buy this other thing!" Repeatedly. Yes and I hated myself every time while I trained myself in the knowledge that "Jira important notification means ignore" Great lesson for your team w.r.t. a bug tracker, huh? Pick 100 things you wanted improved about it, limit yourself to just your top 100, Atlassian did absolutely none of those and yet made them all worse. Every year. And I'm sure it makes good business sense. They know who is signing their cheques, that is who they care about. And I'm also sure they're very relaxed about how developers loathe them, discount me totally and look at the rest of the comments or any time it comes up. That's their right. They can laugh at us all the way to the bank. If you had more money than your great-grand children could spend in lifetime of Brewster splurges why would you care that your users hate you? You've got far more important toys to play with.

ozim 4y ago

I believe misery for Atlassian products were mostly self inflicted by companies that insisted on having it on-perm and then not giving a damn about upgrades and not giving a damn about resources to maintain it. I work with JIRA cloud for 8 years now and while there are hiccups it just works.

Kelteseth 4y ago
We use selfhosted Gitlab and I do regularly report bugs in the Qt bugtracker that uses JIRA. GitLab is light years ahead of JIRA for even the basic task like adding a links, images or searching for issues. The UI is slow and cumbersome to work with.
sgt 4y ago
It's slow though. Our on-prem Jira was much faster than the cloud one.