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Developer here. I quite like Jira, I've never seen anything as fleshed out or complete as it is. At a previous startup, I used clubhouse.io, but I seriously mis

Developer here. I quite like Jira, I've never seen anything as fleshed out or complete as it is. At a previous startup, I used clubhouse.io, but I seriously missed Jira after a few months. I generally think Atlassian is a really solid company building good products and I really don't get the hatred. I'm also open to acceptable alternatives to Jira and Trello. Edit: ooh, just saw that they also own statuspage. And everyone uses/likes statuspage.

harry8 4y ago
>... I really don't get the hatred. The hatred pretty much comes directly from the fact that as developers we are not the customer, just the user. What do developers want? Not to wait for flipping ever on every damn mouse click. To be as fast and minimal as possible. Stay out of the way so I can get work done. What does the customer (the person who selects the product and signs away company $ for it) To "manage" developers with more of the latest utter bullcrap management cult incantations that are fundamentally useless while being time expensive to developers who have just a little bit of talent. Kanban. What the actual f&^k? Seriously. Does it cost develeoper time? How much? Is it worth that time? So yeah, bits of jira as a bug tracker were designed ok, then made worse and worse and worse and slower to run and worse I have to do what now? and slower and worse and what else is there non-atlassian like literally anything else is worth a shot. Years ago in a fit of "do something about the misery" I looked at the atlassian website, saw "contact the founders" and thought I'd let them know how much worse this crap was getting and how much I didn't like putting up with it as a user. Some flunky created a goddamn jira ticket, then closed it! Never seen by the founders. Being an angry idiot I sent another one filing a bug that "contact the founders" is not seen by the founders so is wholly dishonest. You can guess how that changed everything. They don't and didn't care. They hate me and my kind is the only reasonable inference I can make. What am I meant to do? Turn the other cheek so they can make more money kicking me in the shins? Yeah so there's one place the hate comes from. We are forced to use a product made by a company who hates us. Hopefully that clears it up one perspective for you. Others may see things differently of course.
- onethought 4y ago
  > What do developers want? Linear (linear.app)
  - andrekandre 4y ago
    hmm this product looks pretty good, and it even has a native-ish mac app (i really dislike having to use jira in a browser and juggle even more tabs) https://linear.app/ https://linear.app/
- killjoywashere 4y ago
  I oversee multiple teams and have one R&D team that I built. Hired every person. They are all far better coders than I. But I’m the outward face negotiating for resources. And my team using Jira helps me get them resources. I use Jira with them. I’m also pulling tasks across the board. The brutal reality is it’s my reputation that brings in money and resources. I need to effectively estimate what we can do. And Jira really helps with that. The other teams I oversee use project management tooling too. And I see them. I’m here to tell you there are SOTA companies, led by engineers, that use Gantt charts. I used to think the anti-Jira, anti-management crowd was inherently right. Now I’m quite a bit more skeptical of those views.
  - aato 4y ago
    Can you elaborate on how Jira helps you estimate?
    - heisenbit 4y ago
      If you have good developer providing honest estimates, no data protection concerns and they diligently provide actuals agile tooling like in Jira can provide great results. But that all depends on culture. The poster seems to be an engaged manager, pays attention to the data and uses it in a sane way and has hired a group of strong developers. This is not your average setup…
      - 4y ago
coin 4y ago
> as fleshed out or complete as it is Their dropdown list doesn't show the currently selected item
- hulitu 4y ago
  Haha, this is the new trend. And hiding scrollbars or making them unusable.
csomar 4y ago
Trello is not really their product. They acquired that company.
- verst 4y ago
  Same with statuspage
  - re-thc 4y ago
    Same with Bitbucket
- nullspace 4y ago
  Sure, but they also (likely) have tons of teams maintaining and improving them. It's somewhat (but not exactly) like saying Youtube and Android are not Google's products.
jemmyw 4y ago
As someone who has worked on integrations with Jira for many years, it's the length of time bugs stay open. Our customers use Jira and they have to put up with its buggy behaviour that takes a very long time to get fixed or is just marked won't fix without explanation. Every product has bugs of course, but their attitude to them is quite bad. For example, there was a bug to do with epics and webhooks for years. Then they finally fixed it, then Jira "next gen" broke it again. Couple of years later it was fixed again. I understand from some ex employees that the Jira product is quite hard to work on, which makes sense given it's lifespan. As a user, it's ok. It wouldn't be my 10th choice, but it's not the worst tracking tool out there.
- jamesfinlayson 4y ago
  Yes I heard that it was lots of legacy JSP stuff.
DrBazza 4y ago
As someone who never watched Gavin+Stacey, and cannot be held accountable for James Corden, I did, on the other hand recommend to my Megabank employer, way back in the 00s that we purchase Jira. I know we spent $$$$$ on it, and therefore helped Atlassian grow into what it is today. Back then, Jira really was good and fast compared to everything else, which was pretty much bugzilla or a roll-your-own corporate ticket system. It was also the first thing we managed to get a bidirectional link from an issue into Subversion commit messages and back again, and it ticked all the boxes for... a development team. Then came the "let's make it a generic issue tracker" approach, so yes, "as fleshed out or complete as it is" is indeed true. They've chased every niche that they can find that needs an issue tracker but making it so configurable. It's just a shame it's a complete dumpster fire now. Slow. The search never returns what you're looking for (Confluence is worse if that's possible), and at some point and size, you're going to need a full time member of staff to look after... an issue tracker. This feels like we're almost at one of those moments where Slack came along and reinvented all the instant messengers, and whatsapp/discord/whatever replaced skype (or arguably MS did that all by themselves). I know the apocryphal story for start ups is 'don't write a TODO list app, or an issue tracker', but there should be a better alternative. Youtrack always feels like it should get more traction, but perhaps Jetbrains are happy with it being an MVP for their own purposes.
- nullspace 4y ago
  > Youtrack always feels like it should get more traction, but perhaps Jetbrains are happy with it being an MVP for their own purposes. If Jetbrains Spaces gets some more adoption and maturity it may just kick Atlassian's backside. :)
nivenkos 4y ago
I preferred Clubhouse to JIRA - why didn't you like it? But yeah, JIRA is far from the worst of these tools IMO.
flappyeagle 4y ago
What did you miss about jira when using clubhouse? From the outside it looks like jira with a different color scheme
gautamdivgi 4y ago
I agree. I don’t get the hatred for jira. I mean don’t complicate its usage. It’s a pretty awesome tool. It’s simple. Yeah, there’s some clicking but on the whole that’s on the person owning the project to customize. I don’t mind bitbucket either. We self host both.

harry8 4y ago

>... I really don't get the hatred. The hatred pretty much comes directly from the fact that as developers we are not the customer, just the user. What do developers want? Not to wait for flipping ever on every damn mouse click. To be as fast and minimal as possible. Stay out of the way so I can get work done. What does the customer (the person who selects the product and signs away company $ for it) To "manage" developers with more of the latest utter bullcrap management cult incantations that are fundamentally useless while being time expensive to developers who have just a little bit of talent. Kanban. What the actual f&^k? Seriously. Does it cost develeoper time? How much? Is it worth that time? So yeah, bits of jira as a bug tracker were designed ok, then made worse and worse and worse and slower to run and worse I have to do what now? and slower and worse and what else is there non-atlassian like literally anything else is worth a shot. Years ago in a fit of "do something about the misery" I looked at the atlassian website, saw "contact the founders" and thought I'd let them know how much worse this crap was getting and how much I didn't like putting up with it as a user. Some flunky created a goddamn jira ticket, then closed it! Never seen by the founders. Being an angry idiot I sent another one filing a bug that "contact the founders" is not seen by the founders so is wholly dishonest. You can guess how that changed everything. They don't and didn't care. They hate me and my kind is the only reasonable inference I can make. What am I meant to do? Turn the other cheek so they can make more money kicking me in the shins? Yeah so there's one place the hate comes from. We are forced to use a product made by a company who hates us. Hopefully that clears it up one perspective for you. Others may see things differently of course.

onethought 4y ago
> What do developers want? Linear (linear.app)
- andrekandre 4y ago
  hmm this product looks pretty good, and it even has a native-ish mac app (i really dislike having to use jira in a browser and juggle even more tabs) https://linear.app/ https://linear.app/
killjoywashere 4y ago
I oversee multiple teams and have one R&D team that I built. Hired every person. They are all far better coders than I. But I’m the outward face negotiating for resources. And my team using Jira helps me get them resources. I use Jira with them. I’m also pulling tasks across the board. The brutal reality is it’s my reputation that brings in money and resources. I need to effectively estimate what we can do. And Jira really helps with that. The other teams I oversee use project management tooling too. And I see them. I’m here to tell you there are SOTA companies, led by engineers, that use Gantt charts. I used to think the anti-Jira, anti-management crowd was inherently right. Now I’m quite a bit more skeptical of those views.
- aato 4y ago
  Can you elaborate on how Jira helps you estimate?
  - heisenbit 4y ago
    If you have good developer providing honest estimates, no data protection concerns and they diligently provide actuals agile tooling like in Jira can provide great results. But that all depends on culture. The poster seems to be an engaged manager, pays attention to the data and uses it in a sane way and has hired a group of strong developers. This is not your average setup…
    - 4y ago

coin 4y ago

> as fleshed out or complete as it is Their dropdown list doesn't show the currently selected item

hulitu 4y ago
Haha, this is the new trend. And hiding scrollbars or making them unusable.

csomar 4y ago

Trello is not really their product. They acquired that company.

verst 4y ago
Same with statuspage
- re-thc 4y ago
  Same with Bitbucket
nullspace 4y ago
Sure, but they also (likely) have tons of teams maintaining and improving them. It's somewhat (but not exactly) like saying Youtube and Android are not Google's products.

jemmyw 4y ago

As someone who has worked on integrations with Jira for many years, it's the length of time bugs stay open. Our customers use Jira and they have to put up with its buggy behaviour that takes a very long time to get fixed or is just marked won't fix without explanation. Every product has bugs of course, but their attitude to them is quite bad. For example, there was a bug to do with epics and webhooks for years. Then they finally fixed it, then Jira "next gen" broke it again. Couple of years later it was fixed again. I understand from some ex employees that the Jira product is quite hard to work on, which makes sense given it's lifespan. As a user, it's ok. It wouldn't be my 10th choice, but it's not the worst tracking tool out there.

jamesfinlayson 4y ago
Yes I heard that it was lots of legacy JSP stuff.

DrBazza 4y ago

As someone who never watched Gavin+Stacey, and cannot be held accountable for James Corden, I did, on the other hand recommend to my Megabank employer, way back in the 00s that we purchase Jira. I know we spent $$$$$ on it, and therefore helped Atlassian grow into what it is today. Back then, Jira really was good and fast compared to everything else, which was pretty much bugzilla or a roll-your-own corporate ticket system. It was also the first thing we managed to get a bidirectional link from an issue into Subversion commit messages and back again, and it ticked all the boxes for... a development team. Then came the "let's make it a generic issue tracker" approach, so yes, "as fleshed out or complete as it is" is indeed true. They've chased every niche that they can find that needs an issue tracker but making it so configurable. It's just a shame it's a complete dumpster fire now. Slow. The search never returns what you're looking for (Confluence is worse if that's possible), and at some point and size, you're going to need a full time member of staff to look after... an issue tracker. This feels like we're almost at one of those moments where Slack came along and reinvented all the instant messengers, and whatsapp/discord/whatever replaced skype (or arguably MS did that all by themselves). I know the apocryphal story for start ups is 'don't write a TODO list app, or an issue tracker', but there should be a better alternative. Youtrack always feels like it should get more traction, but perhaps Jetbrains are happy with it being an MVP for their own purposes.

nullspace 4y ago
> Youtrack always feels like it should get more traction, but perhaps Jetbrains are happy with it being an MVP for their own purposes. If Jetbrains Spaces gets some more adoption and maturity it may just kick Atlassian's backside. :)

nivenkos 4y ago

I preferred Clubhouse to JIRA - why didn't you like it? But yeah, JIRA is far from the worst of these tools IMO.

flappyeagle 4y ago

What did you miss about jira when using clubhouse? From the outside it looks like jira with a different color scheme

gautamdivgi 4y ago

I agree. I don’t get the hatred for jira. I mean don’t complicate its usage. It’s a pretty awesome tool. It’s simple. Yeah, there’s some clicking but on the whole that’s on the person owning the project to customize. I don’t mind bitbucket either. We self host both.