12 ms·

They should lay off 100% and go out of business. An entire generation of devs has suffered with Atlassian's broken, unscalable tooling. In my entire career I'v

They should lay off 100% and go out of business. An entire generation of devs has suffered with Atlassian's broken, unscalable tooling. In my entire career I've never met someone who actually likes their products.

bzhang255 4y ago
> They should lay off 100% and go out of business. Suggesting that 9000 people lose their jobs feels like a needlessly hateful way to express a dissatisfaction with a company's products.
- midoridensha 4y ago
  Maybe they should work someplace better. It's like people saying the American automakers should have been bailed out just to save all the jobs: if those companies had been left to die, other automakers would have taken over their marketshare and expanded operations, hiring the unemployed workers and probably buying up a lot of factories, support companies, etc. Keeping a shitty company alive with bad management in place just for the workers isn't good for the market in general. Disclaimer: I'm just arguing the general principle here. I don't have any strong opinions on Atlassian.
  - coding123 4y ago
    The better way than to waste everyone's time with comments like this is to start a company that competes. I bet you don't get very far. If you do, good for you, maybe you'll have a company in 20 years that people on hacker news says "Keeping a shitty company alive with bad management in place just for the workers isn't good for the market in general." while you roll in your gold sheets at night.
  - sillybov3456 4y ago
    The other point of view is that the industry would have been entirely off shored. I think this is particularly a concern in tech, where US workers are notably spoiled even in comparison to the rest of the US. That wasn't the case with the auto workers to the same extent and so people were more sympathetic. I'd imagine everybody in tech gets told to fuck off pretty rudely if it ever gets to the point of bailouts, so the good news is that your concern is unfounded.
    - midoridensha 4y ago
      >The other point of view is that the industry would have been entirely off shored. No, it wouldn't have. The ownership might have, but that's ok. Lots of great cars are built in the USA, by American workers, by companies like BMW and Honda and Toyota. If GM had been allowed to die, that would have simply meant more foreign-brand-owned factories in the US. Why do you care so much about the nationality of the top execs?
- twblalock 4y ago
  9000 people who make products that suck should do something else with their lives. Does that mean they will lose their jobs? Yes. It's still the best outcome for the world and those people will get other jobs, hopefully making better products.
  - andy_ppp 4y ago
    I think you’re confusing your opinion with reality, the truth is Jira (I presume this is your real complaint?) is fine and works well enough for most people they can just get on with it.
    - systematical 4y ago
      I'm actually okay with Jira. I can't understand why they don't address performance, but I can roll with it because its not that abysmal. I honestly haven't seen something much better out there so it is what it is. It's confluence that I absolutely hate, thats where the performance and generally sad state of the UX gets to me. Bitbucket is even worse, but I had forgotten about its existence until recently because the company I now work for uses that clunky POS. There are good alternatives to those products, but somehow companies get roped into that garbage because they are already using Jira. How can Atlassian have all that staff and such shit products? Edit: I know the answer because I've been a company that did all of this. Build new shit and don't focus on the main product, then lay off your staff.
      - twblalock 4y ago
        Their stuff just doesn't scale because they have unscalable software architectures and have never gotten past that.
      - ammo1662 4y ago
        Totally agree. Using their products is just like talking to my grandfather who is already 95 years old. I had to be very very patient and get ready for repeating something if needed.
      - 4y ago
- Xeamek 4y ago
  Oh stop with the virtue signaling. We are in IT business for God sake. We make crap ton of money, we can work from pretty much anywhere in the world and the market is still undersaturated by a lot. Obviously loosing job always sucks, but this social movement of caring about workers who were let go was meant to be about poor, low skill laborers with no viable alternative in sight, not heckin programmers lmao
  - kodah 4y ago
    > We are in IT business for God sake. We make crap ton of money, we can work from pretty much anywhere in the world and the market is still undersaturated by a lot. Obviously loosing job always sucks, but this social movement of caring about workers who were let go was meant to be about poor, low skill laborers with no viable alternative in sight, not heckin programmers lmao I don't think all or even most programmers are in a position to just willy nilly dance out of a job and find one the same or better. When I quit my last job it took months of planning. It took 3-5 round difficult interviews with 10 different companies to find the one I wanted to be at. That took a little over three months total.
    - Xeamek 4y ago
      Never said you can just willy nilly dance, but you won't be walking hungry, even if you might need to get out your comfort zone and god forbid work in PHP for a few months. Compare that to people who work minimum wage, have no education and are barely keeping things together- them loosing a job and You loosing a job is just worlds apart of a difference
      - kodah 4y ago
        Yeah, I still don't agree with this. Skills become irrelevant, worker burnout and churn in tech is high, geocentralization and the requirement to move are also detrimental, the requirement to live in vastly expensive cities with reasonable commutes generally puts a higher risk level on any savings, and lastly, not all tech workers are married to other high income earners, which I feel like these privilege statements are designed to ignore.
guywithahat 4y ago
I like how bitbucket's pull request/issues system works more than github, and they have really good integration with jira, although to your credit I've never encountered a system I really love
nullspace 4y ago
Developer here. I quite like Jira, I've never seen anything as fleshed out or complete as it is. At a previous startup, I used clubhouse.io, but I seriously missed Jira after a few months. I generally think Atlassian is a really solid company building good products and I really don't get the hatred. I'm also open to acceptable alternatives to Jira and Trello. Edit: ooh, just saw that they also own statuspage. And everyone uses/likes statuspage.
- harry8 4y ago
  >... I really don't get the hatred. The hatred pretty much comes directly from the fact that as developers we are not the customer, just the user. What do developers want? Not to wait for flipping ever on every damn mouse click. To be as fast and minimal as possible. Stay out of the way so I can get work done. What does the customer (the person who selects the product and signs away company $ for it) To "manage" developers with more of the latest utter bullcrap management cult incantations that are fundamentally useless while being time expensive to developers who have just a little bit of talent. Kanban. What the actual f&^k? Seriously. Does it cost develeoper time? How much? Is it worth that time? So yeah, bits of jira as a bug tracker were designed ok, then made worse and worse and worse and slower to run and worse I have to do what now? and slower and worse and what else is there non-atlassian like literally anything else is worth a shot. Years ago in a fit of "do something about the misery" I looked at the atlassian website, saw "contact the founders" and thought I'd let them know how much worse this crap was getting and how much I didn't like putting up with it as a user. Some flunky created a goddamn jira ticket, then closed it! Never seen by the founders. Being an angry idiot I sent another one filing a bug that "contact the founders" is not seen by the founders so is wholly dishonest. You can guess how that changed everything. They don't and didn't care. They hate me and my kind is the only reasonable inference I can make. What am I meant to do? Turn the other cheek so they can make more money kicking me in the shins? Yeah so there's one place the hate comes from. We are forced to use a product made by a company who hates us. Hopefully that clears it up one perspective for you. Others may see things differently of course.
  - onethought 4y ago
    > What do developers want? Linear (linear.app)
tape_measure 4y ago
I like Jira. I'm not a SWE, different kind of engineer.
jojobas 4y ago
Jira products are not there to make developers happy, they are to make them work so that project managers are happy. I haven't heard 10% as many complaints from project managers as I have from developers.
throwswaydollar 4y ago
I used to use source tree. It's good
jfoster 4y ago
Believe it or not, about 15 years ago, Atlassian tools were far better than their competitors.
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  I'm sure they were better. This was before the trend of hiring frontend JS developers and making up busywork to justify their salary and reimplementing worse versions of solved problems. I remember using Jira in 2017 on a "legacy" project (as opposed to the "next generation project" as they call it). It was fine. I don't mind backend slowness - one second is no big deal in the grand scheme of things. I actually liked Jira (for its features and functionality). The problem nowadays is that the slowness has been distributed across both the backend and frontend. It's not enough to wait one second for the backend to respond, you now also need to wait for a pile of shit Javascript to load, parse and execute, which has its own subsequent backend requests that themselves take a second to load. And God forbid you accidentally click anywhere or need to copy text, as now everything is clickable and incurs the same slowness if you need to undo the accidental action.
  - jfoster 4y ago
    Completely agree. It's incredible that Atlassian haven't fixed it yet, since they will eventually be replaced if they don't. Makes me wonder what it will take for Atlassian to eventually be replaced, since the users affected by it are typically not the purchasers.
8n4vidtmkvmk 4y ago
I did until they ruined everything. They had good Mercurial hosting, one thing that Github didn't, but then they decided to delete all our repos without a proper export tool either. And they thought we'd just migrate over to Git and stay on their platform? No thanks. HipChat was good. Then they decided they couldn't compete with Slack so they started rewriting it and then gave up and killed it. So...they've forcefully booted me off their platform.
switch007 4y ago
Using Jira made me miss Azure Devops Boards and that’s saying something
danwee 4y ago
Whenever something goes wrong in terms of product management, we can always blame Jira (or the PM). I like that.

bzhang255 4y ago

> They should lay off 100% and go out of business. Suggesting that 9000 people lose their jobs feels like a needlessly hateful way to express a dissatisfaction with a company's products.

midoridensha 4y ago
Maybe they should work someplace better. It's like people saying the American automakers should have been bailed out just to save all the jobs: if those companies had been left to die, other automakers would have taken over their marketshare and expanded operations, hiring the unemployed workers and probably buying up a lot of factories, support companies, etc. Keeping a shitty company alive with bad management in place just for the workers isn't good for the market in general. Disclaimer: I'm just arguing the general principle here. I don't have any strong opinions on Atlassian.
- coding123 4y ago
  The better way than to waste everyone's time with comments like this is to start a company that competes. I bet you don't get very far. If you do, good for you, maybe you'll have a company in 20 years that people on hacker news says "Keeping a shitty company alive with bad management in place just for the workers isn't good for the market in general." while you roll in your gold sheets at night.
- sillybov3456 4y ago
  The other point of view is that the industry would have been entirely off shored. I think this is particularly a concern in tech, where US workers are notably spoiled even in comparison to the rest of the US. That wasn't the case with the auto workers to the same extent and so people were more sympathetic. I'd imagine everybody in tech gets told to fuck off pretty rudely if it ever gets to the point of bailouts, so the good news is that your concern is unfounded.
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    >The other point of view is that the industry would have been entirely off shored. No, it wouldn't have. The ownership might have, but that's ok. Lots of great cars are built in the USA, by American workers, by companies like BMW and Honda and Toyota. If GM had been allowed to die, that would have simply meant more foreign-brand-owned factories in the US. Why do you care so much about the nationality of the top execs?
twblalock 4y ago
9000 people who make products that suck should do something else with their lives. Does that mean they will lose their jobs? Yes. It's still the best outcome for the world and those people will get other jobs, hopefully making better products.
- andy_ppp 4y ago
  I think you’re confusing your opinion with reality, the truth is Jira (I presume this is your real complaint?) is fine and works well enough for most people they can just get on with it.
  - systematical 4y ago
    I'm actually okay with Jira. I can't understand why they don't address performance, but I can roll with it because its not that abysmal. I honestly haven't seen something much better out there so it is what it is. It's confluence that I absolutely hate, thats where the performance and generally sad state of the UX gets to me. Bitbucket is even worse, but I had forgotten about its existence until recently because the company I now work for uses that clunky POS. There are good alternatives to those products, but somehow companies get roped into that garbage because they are already using Jira. How can Atlassian have all that staff and such shit products? Edit: I know the answer because I've been a company that did all of this. Build new shit and don't focus on the main product, then lay off your staff.
    - twblalock 4y ago
      Their stuff just doesn't scale because they have unscalable software architectures and have never gotten past that.
    - ammo1662 4y ago
      Totally agree. Using their products is just like talking to my grandfather who is already 95 years old. I had to be very very patient and get ready for repeating something if needed.
    - 4y ago
Xeamek 4y ago
Oh stop with the virtue signaling. We are in IT business for God sake. We make crap ton of money, we can work from pretty much anywhere in the world and the market is still undersaturated by a lot. Obviously loosing job always sucks, but this social movement of caring about workers who were let go was meant to be about poor, low skill laborers with no viable alternative in sight, not heckin programmers lmao
- kodah 4y ago
  > We are in IT business for God sake. We make crap ton of money, we can work from pretty much anywhere in the world and the market is still undersaturated by a lot. Obviously loosing job always sucks, but this social movement of caring about workers who were let go was meant to be about poor, low skill laborers with no viable alternative in sight, not heckin programmers lmao I don't think all or even most programmers are in a position to just willy nilly dance out of a job and find one the same or better. When I quit my last job it took months of planning. It took 3-5 round difficult interviews with 10 different companies to find the one I wanted to be at. That took a little over three months total.
  - Xeamek 4y ago
    Never said you can just willy nilly dance, but you won't be walking hungry, even if you might need to get out your comfort zone and god forbid work in PHP for a few months. Compare that to people who work minimum wage, have no education and are barely keeping things together- them loosing a job and You loosing a job is just worlds apart of a difference
    - kodah 4y ago
      Yeah, I still don't agree with this. Skills become irrelevant, worker burnout and churn in tech is high, geocentralization and the requirement to move are also detrimental, the requirement to live in vastly expensive cities with reasonable commutes generally puts a higher risk level on any savings, and lastly, not all tech workers are married to other high income earners, which I feel like these privilege statements are designed to ignore.

guywithahat 4y ago

I like how bitbucket's pull request/issues system works more than github, and they have really good integration with jira, although to your credit I've never encountered a system I really love

nullspace 4y ago

Developer here. I quite like Jira, I've never seen anything as fleshed out or complete as it is. At a previous startup, I used clubhouse.io, but I seriously missed Jira after a few months. I generally think Atlassian is a really solid company building good products and I really don't get the hatred. I'm also open to acceptable alternatives to Jira and Trello. Edit: ooh, just saw that they also own statuspage. And everyone uses/likes statuspage.

harry8 4y ago
>... I really don't get the hatred. The hatred pretty much comes directly from the fact that as developers we are not the customer, just the user. What do developers want? Not to wait for flipping ever on every damn mouse click. To be as fast and minimal as possible. Stay out of the way so I can get work done. What does the customer (the person who selects the product and signs away company $ for it) To "manage" developers with more of the latest utter bullcrap management cult incantations that are fundamentally useless while being time expensive to developers who have just a little bit of talent. Kanban. What the actual f&^k? Seriously. Does it cost develeoper time? How much? Is it worth that time? So yeah, bits of jira as a bug tracker were designed ok, then made worse and worse and worse and slower to run and worse I have to do what now? and slower and worse and what else is there non-atlassian like literally anything else is worth a shot. Years ago in a fit of "do something about the misery" I looked at the atlassian website, saw "contact the founders" and thought I'd let them know how much worse this crap was getting and how much I didn't like putting up with it as a user. Some flunky created a goddamn jira ticket, then closed it! Never seen by the founders. Being an angry idiot I sent another one filing a bug that "contact the founders" is not seen by the founders so is wholly dishonest. You can guess how that changed everything. They don't and didn't care. They hate me and my kind is the only reasonable inference I can make. What am I meant to do? Turn the other cheek so they can make more money kicking me in the shins? Yeah so there's one place the hate comes from. We are forced to use a product made by a company who hates us. Hopefully that clears it up one perspective for you. Others may see things differently of course.
- onethought 4y ago
  > What do developers want? Linear (linear.app)

tape_measure 4y ago

I like Jira. I'm not a SWE, different kind of engineer.

jojobas 4y ago

Jira products are not there to make developers happy, they are to make them work so that project managers are happy. I haven't heard 10% as many complaints from project managers as I have from developers.

throwswaydollar 4y ago

I used to use source tree. It's good

jfoster 4y ago

Believe it or not, about 15 years ago, Atlassian tools were far better than their competitors.

Nextgrid 4y ago
I'm sure they were better. This was before the trend of hiring frontend JS developers and making up busywork to justify their salary and reimplementing worse versions of solved problems. I remember using Jira in 2017 on a "legacy" project (as opposed to the "next generation project" as they call it). It was fine. I don't mind backend slowness - one second is no big deal in the grand scheme of things. I actually liked Jira (for its features and functionality). The problem nowadays is that the slowness has been distributed across both the backend and frontend. It's not enough to wait one second for the backend to respond, you now also need to wait for a pile of shit Javascript to load, parse and execute, which has its own subsequent backend requests that themselves take a second to load. And God forbid you accidentally click anywhere or need to copy text, as now everything is clickable and incurs the same slowness if you need to undo the accidental action.
- jfoster 4y ago
  Completely agree. It's incredible that Atlassian haven't fixed it yet, since they will eventually be replaced if they don't. Makes me wonder what it will take for Atlassian to eventually be replaced, since the users affected by it are typically not the purchasers.

8n4vidtmkvmk 4y ago

I did until they ruined everything. They had good Mercurial hosting, one thing that Github didn't, but then they decided to delete all our repos without a proper export tool either. And they thought we'd just migrate over to Git and stay on their platform? No thanks. HipChat was good. Then they decided they couldn't compete with Slack so they started rewriting it and then gave up and killed it. So...they've forcefully booted me off their platform.

switch007 4y ago

Using Jira made me miss Azure Devops Boards and that’s saying something

danwee 4y ago

Whenever something goes wrong in terms of product management, we can always blame Jira (or the PM). I like that.