4 ms·

So what about Bachelor and Baccalaureate both being words that have their pre-Latin roots in Arabic: Bihaqq Al-riwayatt (“the right to restate the learning to

So what about Bachelor and Baccalaureate both being words that have their pre-Latin roots in Arabic: Bihaqq Al-riwayatt (“the right to restate the learning to somebody else“). Or the fact that ceremonial graduation garb in the EU and US, from the robes to the caps, is also based in Arab tradition. The medieval Enlightenment and subsequent Renaissance was huge for Europe, yes, but just as important to realize today is that a lot of it was taking heavy inspiration from other cultures and regions and “Europeanizing” it and then calling it their own (I.E. a cultural exchange)

emmelaich 4y ago
That link you gave for Bihaqq Al-riwayatt was very interesting but not conclusive imho.
Symbiote 4y ago
> Or the fact Muslims are just as capable as Christians at promoting theories with very little evidence to support their arguments. Both of your assertions are unproven theories, with the evidence against them: bachelor originally meant a young knight who followed another (though the etymology before that is uncertain), and academic robes derive from similar (European) mediaeval clerical and secular clothing.
- bnralt 4y ago
  There's a scene in My Big Fat Greek Wedding where the father says that the etymology of all English words can be traced back to Greek[1]. When someone challenges him with the word "Kimono," he pauses for a second, and then concocts a semi-plausible sounding explanation about how the word evolved from a Greek word. A comedy, but I think it does reflect how a lot of people can be so impressed by their own culture that they end up spinning fictional narratives about it. For example, I was surprised to find that a common myth among Germans was that the USA almost had German become its official language, and German only lost out by a single vote. Pride in one's culture isn't a bad thing, but too much of it can definitely lead people to believe some very questionable claims. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXt0VCPKfQ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXt0VCPKfQ4
  - LudwigNagasena 4y ago
    > There's a scene in My Big Fat Greek Wedding And there is linguistics, a science that studies language including etymology.
    - bnralt 4y ago
      I mean, I don’t think anyone here doubts that linguistics exists. The point was rather that fake etymologies also exist, and can be extremely common. As other replies have noted, it doesn't look like there's evidence that the word "Baccalaureate" comes from the Arabic "Bihaqq Al-riwayatt," and there seems to be a high likelihood that this is a fake etymology.
      - Symbiote 4y ago
        The Oxford English Dictionary even points out the fake etymology for bachelor meaning a laurel wreath, and says it's just an old pun.
  - guenthert 4y ago
    > For example, I was surprised to find that a common myth among Germans was that the USA almost had German become its official language, and German only lost out by a single vote. That myth does exist, but I do not think that it is a belief commonly held by Germans (i.e. people living in Germany, not referring to those US citizens tracing their heritage to the Fatherland here). I heard about it only long after crossing the pond. I rather think it's spread by people interested in German language/German culture albeit living in the USA. And I don't think anyone takes it too seriously. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/the-german-vote/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/the-german-vote/ EDIT: I stand corrected: it's not only known in Germany, but was apparently first spread there in 1847: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhlenberg-Legende https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhlenberg-Legende
    - bnralt 4y ago
      I assumed it was common because I've run into different Germans who brought up the myth to me, and were surprised I didn't know about it (treating it as common knowledge). But it's certainly possible the people I've known aren't a great representation of the general population.
SeanLuke 4y ago
> So what about Bachelor and Baccalaureate both being words that have their pre-Latin roots in Arabic What evidence do you have for this extraordinary claim? > Or the fact that ceremonial graduation garb in the EU and US, from the robes to the caps, is also based in Arab tradition. This is also an unfounded claim. University garb is derived from monstic order garb, which in turn is from early Nicean period monk tradition. This long predates your source.
- zeckalpha 4y ago
  Ah, so the robes are Turkish, then?
- pradn 4y ago
  Wiktionary states the following for "baccalaureate": From French baccalauréat, from Medieval Latin baccalaureatus, from Latin baccalaureus, an alteration of baccalārius (“young man aspiring to knighthood”), to resemble bacca lauri (“laurel berry”) (the ancient symbol of victory). Compare bachelor. For "baccalaureus": Alteration of baccalārius, influenced (by folk etymology) by Latin bacca ("berry") and laurea ("laurel") due to the fact that graduates wore laurel crowns filled with berries in order to represent the fruit of their study. Perhaps of Celtic origin, from Gaulish *bakalakos, itself borrowed from Latin baculum (“stick”).[1] No Arabic roots here.
  - MichaelZuo 4y ago
    Folks on HN sometimes have very unusual beliefs but that was definitely eyebrow raising.
    - Aspos 4y ago
      Yeah, it is ridiculous to believe "baccalaureate" could have originated from "one who may teach others". It is far more plausible that this word originated from "stick" or "berry".
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Maursault 4y ago
> Or the fact that ceremonial graduation garb in the EU and US, from the robes to the caps, is also based in Arab tradition. This particular "fact" is in error unless you believe Medieval Christian monks copied Arabic dress. Academic dress in the US derives from Oxford and Cambridge, which was developed from extremely common clerical garb of the Middle Ages. Arabic dress is not necessarily black, but also white and dyed colors, are shaped differently than academic dress and have a trim never seen in academic dress. The two types of dress have origins distinct from each other. They may both belong to a larger category of robes, but the similarity ends there.

emmelaich 4y ago

That link you gave for Bihaqq Al-riwayatt was very interesting but not conclusive imho.

Symbiote 4y ago

> Or the fact Muslims are just as capable as Christians at promoting theories with very little evidence to support their arguments. Both of your assertions are unproven theories, with the evidence against them: bachelor originally meant a young knight who followed another (though the etymology before that is uncertain), and academic robes derive from similar (European) mediaeval clerical and secular clothing.

bnralt 4y ago
There's a scene in My Big Fat Greek Wedding where the father says that the etymology of all English words can be traced back to Greek[1]. When someone challenges him with the word "Kimono," he pauses for a second, and then concocts a semi-plausible sounding explanation about how the word evolved from a Greek word. A comedy, but I think it does reflect how a lot of people can be so impressed by their own culture that they end up spinning fictional narratives about it. For example, I was surprised to find that a common myth among Germans was that the USA almost had German become its official language, and German only lost out by a single vote. Pride in one's culture isn't a bad thing, but too much of it can definitely lead people to believe some very questionable claims. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXt0VCPKfQ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXt0VCPKfQ4
- LudwigNagasena 4y ago
  > There's a scene in My Big Fat Greek Wedding And there is linguistics, a science that studies language including etymology.
  - bnralt 4y ago
    I mean, I don’t think anyone here doubts that linguistics exists. The point was rather that fake etymologies also exist, and can be extremely common. As other replies have noted, it doesn't look like there's evidence that the word "Baccalaureate" comes from the Arabic "Bihaqq Al-riwayatt," and there seems to be a high likelihood that this is a fake etymology.
    - Symbiote 4y ago
      The Oxford English Dictionary even points out the fake etymology for bachelor meaning a laurel wreath, and says it's just an old pun.
- guenthert 4y ago
  > For example, I was surprised to find that a common myth among Germans was that the USA almost had German become its official language, and German only lost out by a single vote. That myth does exist, but I do not think that it is a belief commonly held by Germans (i.e. people living in Germany, not referring to those US citizens tracing their heritage to the Fatherland here). I heard about it only long after crossing the pond. I rather think it's spread by people interested in German language/German culture albeit living in the USA. And I don't think anyone takes it too seriously. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/the-german-vote/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/the-german-vote/ EDIT: I stand corrected: it's not only known in Germany, but was apparently first spread there in 1847: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhlenberg-Legende https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhlenberg-Legende
  - bnralt 4y ago
    I assumed it was common because I've run into different Germans who brought up the myth to me, and were surprised I didn't know about it (treating it as common knowledge). But it's certainly possible the people I've known aren't a great representation of the general population.

SeanLuke 4y ago

> So what about Bachelor and Baccalaureate both being words that have their pre-Latin roots in Arabic What evidence do you have for this extraordinary claim? > Or the fact that ceremonial graduation garb in the EU and US, from the robes to the caps, is also based in Arab tradition. This is also an unfounded claim. University garb is derived from monstic order garb, which in turn is from early Nicean period monk tradition. This long predates your source.

zeckalpha 4y ago
Ah, so the robes are Turkish, then?
pradn 4y ago
Wiktionary states the following for "baccalaureate": From French baccalauréat, from Medieval Latin baccalaureatus, from Latin baccalaureus, an alteration of baccalārius (“young man aspiring to knighthood”), to resemble bacca lauri (“laurel berry”) (the ancient symbol of victory). Compare bachelor. For "baccalaureus": Alteration of baccalārius, influenced (by folk etymology) by Latin bacca ("berry") and laurea ("laurel") due to the fact that graduates wore laurel crowns filled with berries in order to represent the fruit of their study. Perhaps of Celtic origin, from Gaulish *bakalakos, itself borrowed from Latin baculum (“stick”).[1] No Arabic roots here.
- MichaelZuo 4y ago
  Folks on HN sometimes have very unusual beliefs but that was definitely eyebrow raising.
  - Aspos 4y ago
    Yeah, it is ridiculous to believe "baccalaureate" could have originated from "one who may teach others". It is far more plausible that this word originated from "stick" or "berry".

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Maursault 4y ago

> Or the fact that ceremonial graduation garb in the EU and US, from the robes to the caps, is also based in Arab tradition. This particular "fact" is in error unless you believe Medieval Christian monks copied Arabic dress. Academic dress in the US derives from Oxford and Cambridge, which was developed from extremely common clerical garb of the Middle Ages. Arabic dress is not necessarily black, but also white and dyed colors, are shaped differently than academic dress and have a trim never seen in academic dress. The two types of dress have origins distinct from each other. They may both belong to a larger category of robes, but the similarity ends there.