10 ms·

Pickup Trucks: From Workhorse to Joyride

33 points by throw0101a 4y ago

notch898a 4y ago
Article didn't mention CAFE (which is the reason for larger sizes) nor chicken tax (which makes, even if they qualified under CAFE, foreign small trucks economically non-viable). The demand for older compact S-10 and the old compact rangers is sky high. Make them legal again.
- toast0 4y ago
  I wonder if we'll see compact pickups as EVs (again, Ford had EV Rangers in the time of the EV-1); because CAFE doesn't drive design for EVs, afaik. Personally, I found my 2011 Ranger with the 4-cylinder engine to be fuel efficient enough, and did my light pickup work. I've now got a 2003 S-10 with a v6 and it's much less fuel efficient; I wish I had kept my Ranger, but it made sense to get rid of it at the time.
  - wlesieutre 4y ago
    Ford filed a trademark on Maverick Lightning, and Chevy is kicking around the concept of a single cab, so it could happen https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/01/general-motors-is-investigating-small-ev-party-trucks/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/01/general-motors-is-inves...
- moojd 4y ago
  I would trade in my model y for a compact electric truck of similar spec and price if it existed. I live in a city and don't haul stuff most of the time, but every time I need to carry trash or dirt, make home depot runs, or move furniture I wish I had a truck.
  - throw0101a 4y ago
    > […] but every time I need to carry trash or dirt, make home depot runs, or move furniture I wish I had a truck. If you actually read the article, you'll see that—going by usable length—pickup trucks are generally no longer thing-haulers but people-haulers, which kind of defeats the whole purpose of their form factor. If you want general hauling space/volume, your best best seems to be a (mini)van.
    - notch898a 4y ago
      But the bed used to be where the people went too. Then they made that illegal. When I was a kid it was pretty common to just sit in the bed, now you have to have a cab big enough for everyone to keep from getting a ticket.
      - bagels 4y ago
        It also keeps people from getting dead, not simply to ruin your nostalgia.
        notch898a 4y ago
        I'm pointing out it's a ridiculous nostalgia to think back about the days when the truck wasn't a people hauler. It was. They just made the bed an illegal place to put the people. Making the cab longer isn't to ruin people's nostalgia. It's to deal with the legal requirements for transporting passengers. You're illustrating my point. We shouldn't be outraged when you make something illegal and the vehicle is adapted to deal with that. Why would we be upset about fewer people getting dead, shouldn't we be happy about bigger cabs if that's the case?
        throw0101a 4y ago
        > It's to deal with the legal requirements for transporting passengers. In 1982 the top selling vehicle in the US was the Ford Escort. In 2022 it was the Ford F-150. People were hauled in the Escort just fine (and probably more comfortably in the rain and winter). The F-150 wasn't adapted to better haul people because changes to safety laws: it was adapted do help profit margins.
      - bryanlarsen 4y ago
        I also did that as a kid, until the day after my neighbor's wife died while doing that.
    - moojd 4y ago
      No, I don't need volume. I want to haul things that I do not want inside of the cabin (trash, dirt, gravel, wild game, dirty camping equipment, muddy boots, etc.)
- throw0101a 4y ago
  > Article didn't mention CAFE (which is the reason for larger sizes) nor chicken tax (which makes, even if they qualified under CAFE, foreign small trucks economically non-viable). I was pointed to the article from the just-posted Not Just Bikes video "These Stupid Trucks are Literally Killing Us", which does go over those things: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo The point of the Axios article, which comes up at the 25m25s point in the NJB video, goes towards the point that the pickup truck has actually become less practical over the decades. And to the idea that most folks would be better served with a station wagon or perhaps a minivan. Trucks have gone from the cargo bed being >60% of the usable length (ignoring the engine), to the (crew) cab being >60% of the useable length. Pickup trucks gone from thing-haulers to people-haulers, in which case, why bother with that form factor?
  - notch898a 4y ago
    >Trucks have gone from the cargo bed being >60% of the usable length (ignoring the engine), to the (crew) cab being >60% of the useable length. Pickup trucks gone from thing-haulers to people-haulers, in which case, why bother with that form factor? The bed was always a mixed-use people hauler. Then they made that illegal. Go to Mexico, Iraq, Philippines and other places where it's still tolerated or legal in most places and the bed continues to be a people hauler. It's in part the cab got bigger because you couldn't put the people in the bed anymore, not because more people started riding in the trucks. If you want more bed and less cab again, make it legal for the passengers, kids, etc to ride in the bed again. Like we did when I was a kid. If not, don't be surprised when you make something illegal people adapt the vehicle to deal with it.
    - throw0101a 4y ago
      > If you want more bed and less cab again, make it legal for the passengers, kids, etc to ride in the bed again. Like we did when I was a kid. If not, don't be surprised when you make something illegal people adapt the vehicle to deal with it. Ah yes: let's drive down the interstate at ≥60 mph (100kph) to grandma's house with all the kids in the bed. Great idea. Would you like to also bring back leaded gasoline? Or perhaps non-farmers / non-construction workers can stop pretending they regularly need a cargo bed and get a station wagon or minivan. The top-selling car in 2022 was the Ford F-150, the top selling car in 1982 was Ford Escort: I'm having a hard time believing that people's hauling needs have changed in the intervening decades to rationally justify the sales figures.
- Syonyk 4y ago
  > The demand for older compact S-10 and the old compact rangers is sky high. Make them legal again. Wouldn't the Ford Maverick be the modern version of these? It comes in two different forms as far as I can tell - the "truck shaped car" (FWD, hybrid powertrain), and the "small truck" form (4WD, no hybrid, rather lower fuel economy), depending on what you need it to do. And in a small truck, I think FWD vs the 2WD/RWD Rangers is probably the right option - some of those were pretty tail happy in the slick.
  - renewiltord 4y ago
    If the Maverick were slightly less tall and (more importantly) 2 door or crew-cab they would be a lot more useful. The usable bed is so small you can't get anything done. Instead I have to wait for a good condition 20-30 year old Ford Ranger.
    - ticviking 4y ago
      That or a Toyota Tacoma in the same age range. I've been keeping my eye out for a Ridgeline also, something in that "I do enough on my land to need a hauler but I'm more ex-urban than rural, and don't load the whole bed with projects but once a year"
- twblalock 4y ago
  > The demand for older compact S-10 and the old compact rangers is sky high. Make them legal again. Nothing made them illegal. The Tacoma got quite a lot bigger, and the S-10 was replaced by the Colorado, because consumers wanted larger trucks. I think there is some demand for small trucks, but not enough to get the automakers to manufacture them again. The Ford Courier seems to be doing alright, but I'm not seeing any of the other automakers copying it.
- ticviking 4y ago
  This matches my experience. The number of farmers I know who are running 20+ year old pickups because they can't find any suitable replacement at all is too darn high
bob1029 4y ago
A major thing I see pushing people towards trucks is the amazing ride the latest generation offers. Going on long-distance road trips in something like a 2022 model year pickup truck is pretty close to the most comfortable setup available for < $100k. I don't know of any "luxury" cars that ride better today, even for multiples of the 100k limit. That said, everything else about them is pretty awful. I own one and I mostly hate it until I find myself halfway between Houston and Austin. If I have to drive downtown all day I would much prefer an older, smaller sports car or sedan.
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  "Real" trucks have awful rides. Their suspensions are tuned for heavy loads so when they're not heavily loaded the springs are so stiff that it feels like they don't have any.
  - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
    Lots of pseudo-truck SUVs have horrible stiff suspension all the time. Moreso when coupled with fashionabe low profile tires.
  - cgh 4y ago
    Yeah my Frontier, which is only a mid-size, is so stiff I can feel absolutely everything. Washboarded logging roads, on which this truck spends much of its time, can be a chore as the truck bounces and jumps around. But because it’s tuned so stiff, it also hauls nearly as much as a 3.3L F-150. That said, I can’t imagine using a truck as a daily driver if I lived in a city. The turning radius on my truck is terrible, for example, making tight turns impossible.
jmclnx 4y ago
Saying this as a white collar work, but I now drive a econ-auto. I kind of think it has to do with many white collar workers wanting to look tough and maybe wanting to look like they do real work. But, I hate the "drive like a car" trend for Trucks. I drove a Jeep CJ-7 for almost 20 years, but when it failed catastrophically, I went to an econ-car because all the new jeeps were really just cars. That means, no manual locking hubs, automatic transmission, no manual steering and no plugs in the floor to let out water. It is impossible to get a Real Jeep now. And I believe the same is for pickups. The CJ nad no radio, driving faster then 50-60 mph (80-100 kph) was not recommended. Nevermind the how expensive Jeeps and Pickups are these days. In the 70s/80s, these were cheap compared to Luxury Autos. Pet-peeve time: Why do people in pickups slow down to 1 m/kph on speed bumps ? If driving a truck, no need for that when my car has no issues (for 10 years+) going faster than that.
- bityard 4y ago
  > Why do people in pickups slow down to 1 m/kph on speed bumps I always have a little giggle when I see a ten ton Escalade swerve to miss a pothole.
coreyp_1 4y ago
First, I want to say that this article was horrendous to read. I gave up on it when it hijacked the scroll. I drive a Silverado Truck, 4-door. Why? Because when I go places, if someone else is with me, they are an adult, and so I got a vehicle that is comfortable for adults to ride in, whether they are in the front or back. Also, I don't have anyone else to rely on when I need to pick up furniture, or mulch, or wood, or anything else. I'm also a decently-sized guy. When I have to take a long trip, I want to be comfortable. I don't want to feel like I'm riding in a go-cart for hours. I appreciate the safety of having a larger vehicle when traffic is tight. I like having a larger vehicle. I have driven smaller sports cars, too, but they are never as comfortable as my truck. I've only been in one accident with it. I was parked, legally, in front of my house and a woman, driving the opposite direction in a SUV, hit the curb on her right, came across the road, and ran into my truck. That's why you get insurance! I still love driving my truck!
- twobitshifter 4y ago
  In all but the most remote places you can rent a truck or van nearby. Home Depot rents them for $20. They’ll have a much longer bed than your truck. I usually get one with a ten foot bed, flip down sides and ramps built-in. I did the math and to make a truck more affordable than renting I would have to be hauling things almost every single day. When I need to buy furniture, we get a u-haul box truck which is really the best for moving that type of stuff. You can do it anytime of year, in any weather, it’s huge, and everything is easily secured.
  - calculatte 4y ago
    That thinking falls apart pretty quickly. Why own a car at all? You could just call an Uber every time you need a ride and it would be affordable than paying for a car, insurance, fuel, maintenance. House? How excessive. Just rent a small apartment instead. You don't need a yard, multiple bedrooms. You can go to a park instead and put multiple sleeping bags on the floor. People are free to buy whatever they feel is appropriate for them.
    - 4y ago
vanilla_nut 4y ago
Not Just Bikes video on the same subject today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo It's crazy to see how much trucks have blown up in the last few years. They clog up parking lots, barely fit in parking garages (let alone personal garages), blind me at night with their too-high too-bright headlights, and completely block cross-street vision for anything except other trucks when they park on the street. A complete failure of US govt regulation. At this point I hope gas prices go through the roof and punish these truck owners for their selfish decisionmaking.
- yowzadave 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - twblalock 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - throw0101a 4y ago
      > That's funny, because if you look at things from a bird's eye view quite a few SUVs take up less space than a Camry. They are just taller. > But let's be honest, you didn't actually care about that. The long Camry would be charged just as much as the long truck if that's the system we went with, and would be completely fair. And a Camry is 0.25cm longer than a RAV4: * https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/toyota-corolla-2017-sedan-vs-toyota-rav4-2019-suv-swb/ https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/toyota-corolla-2017... But a Ford F-150 (the #1 selling vehicle in the US in 2022) is 1m longer than a Camry (plus wider): * https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/toyota-corolla-2017-sedan-vs-ford-f150-2014-4-door-pickup-supercrew-5.5/ https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/toyota-corolla-2017...
    - freetime2 4y ago
      > But let's be honest, you didn't actually care about that. You just hate large vehicles and you believe you should be able to control the decisions other people make. That is a bad impulse and the government should not enable it. There's no reason to be like this. The parent is just pointing out an external cost of driving larger vehicles and suggesting a mechanism to pass on some of the cost to the owner. They did not suggest that a Camry should somehow be exempt from this same requirement. For what it's worth I drive a large vehicle. In my country I do pay a larger registration tax for the priviledge to drive it, and I was also required to prove that I had a place to park it when I bought it (street parking isn't really a thing here). This doesn't bother me in the least, because I recognize that there are real social costs associated with driving a larger vehicle, and I am happy to pay my fair share.
bityard 4y ago
I've lived in the US my whole life and even _I_ think America's car culture is bananas. Here are a couple of loosely-related rants. Almost everywhere in the world, cars are a means to get around and occasionally carry things. But in the US, cars are status symbols first and transportation second. We're conditioned to buy as much car as we can afford via advertising, cultural pressure, and low-interest loans. Or even to buy cars when we don't actually need them. (If you live in a city with a subway, you don't actually need a car, you just want one. Your family probably does not need a car for every member of the household. Etc.) Our mass transit is in a shambles because of the insanity of car culture. Except for a few HCOL cities, mass transit is essentially considered to be a service for the poor. Gas prices in the US are embarrassingly low. They are subsidized by the government in various often invisible forms, at the behest of the oil and auto industries. The auto industries have an interest in keeping gas prices low because it means they can convince buys to pony up for ever-increasing vehicle sizes. The "true" price of gas nowadays is somewhere north of $7-8 a gallon and that's not including the inevitable cost of cleaning up the atmosphere, whenever we decide to get serious about that. Where I grew up in the 80's and 90's, you were either a Chevy or a Ford person. Weirdest form of brand loyalty ever. I didn't even know foreign brands sold cars here until after I graduated high school and started seeing more of the country. I never moved back but I visit every few years and there are still no foreign dealerships outside of the major cities. I really want to like electric cars (and trucks, sure) but I don't like that you don't really "own" them. I don't know of any that you can buy that don't require signing up with the manufacturer and having to install an app on your phone, or have the car permanently connected to the cloud via mobile network, just to drive and charge the damn thing.
- yowzadave 4y ago
  Generally I agree with this statement, but this comment seemed a bit off: > I never moved back but I visit every few years and there are still no foreign dealerships outside of the major cities. Of the 10 most popular cars in the US, 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 10 are foreign brands: https://insurify.com/insights/most-popular-cars-2022/ https://insurify.com/insights/most-popular-cars-2022/
- ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago
  We love cars because when we travel, we want privacy. Mass transit might be good but it is something which goes against American individualism. I don't want to smell someone else's body odour throughout a 5 hour journey.
rybosworld 4y ago
Mid-size trucks like the Tacoma and Ranger are fantastic imo. They are perfect for 95% of "truck stuff". The full-size category has really become about excess, which I think this article is getting at.
- Tiktaalik 4y ago
  The Tacoma and Ranger have ballooned in size though. They have many of the same core problems as the full size trucks.
- neogodless 4y ago
  The 2023 Chevrolet Colorado is 4,900 lbs and larger than the 2018 Silverado (work truck/regular cab) in every dimension except width (it's about 6" more narrow.) (The Tacoma and Ranger will get new designs for 2024, and likely catch up on size!)
- hindsightbias 4y ago
  It's 99% excess. Most cars are good enough for 95% urban cowboy "truck" stuff. Can't fit a sheet of plywood flat in a taco or ranger and they get maybe 17 mpg. Even in TX, the parking lots are filled with tacos that have pristine, empty beds and off-road tires that have never seen a gravel/dirt road or back-country. Farm kids would have beaten me up if I'd showed up to school with a shiny taco like that and a big belt buckle.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
    > Can't fit a sheet of plywood flat Reminds me to note that the Honda Civic hatchback from the late 1980s could in fact fit 4'x8' sheet goods in the back quite easily (it also got > 40mpg)
    - twblalock 4y ago
      That's absolute nonsense. I would believe you could get a 4-foot-wide item in a Civic. There is no way on earth you could get a 4x8 sheet inside one of those cars. Also, if you got t-boned by a Tahoe they would need to identify your body with dental records. Those things were basically street-legal go karts.
snozolli 4y ago
There should be an additional licensing requirement for any vehicle over 5,000 pounds, with stiffer penalties and restrictions. Like commercial-lite. For context, the Ford F-150 is 4,021 to 5,740 lbs, and the F250 is 5,677 to 7,538 lbs. (I say that as someone with a ~5,300 pound Land Cruiser) The upcoming electric Hummer will weigh 9,640 pounds and do 0-60 in 3.3 seconds. Hopefully the high price will keep them rare.
twblalock 4y ago
It's funny to see how people who hate trucks are now carping about things like parking space now that electric trucks make gas mileage and emissions irrelevant. It's not wrong to like trucks. If we could just agree on that, the discourse wouldn't be so ridiculous. I personally don't have a truck, I don't like driving trucks, and I don't feel the need to own one. But I can also recognize that other reasonable people need or want trucks and that's fine. Sometimes I need to move a couch or a stack of drywall and I'm glad someone has a truck.
- moojd 4y ago
  Trucks and bicycles are just proxies for the broader culture war. As some one who likes trucks AND rides bicycles, I'm used to getting massive amounts of hate from both sides lol.
- freetime2 4y ago
  > electric trucks make gas mileage and emissions irrelevant. The majority of pickups being sold are still ICE, so gas mileage and emissions are definitely still relevant. Also, electricity needs to come from somewhere, and for now it still comes mainly from burning fossil fuels. So miles per kWh and their associated emissions are still relevant when it comes to EVs. > But I can also recognize that other reasonable people need or want trucks and that's fine. I agree it's not for me to decide what kind of car or truck other people should drive. But I do think the government should at least structure taxes and laws to incentivize people to drive cars with fewer social costs (emissions, safety of others in a collision, road wear, parking space, etc). Currently the US government is doing the opposite, by offering a larger tax credit for EV Trucks and SUVs, for example.
- lamontcg 4y ago
  > Sometimes I need to move a couch or a stack of drywall and I'm glad someone has a truck. Better find someone with an old truck since those won't fit in the bed of a new one.
  - jjav 4y ago
    > Better find someone with an old truck since those won't fit in the bed of a new one. You can easily buy new long bed trucks today. I guess you're referring to how so many people are buying short bed trucks. Which I agree doesn't make sense. If you're going to get a truck, might as well maximize it's usefulness as a truck which is the whole point.
PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
IMO, trucks in the US are in large part an expression of the unfortunate tendency of people (especially Americans) to try to buy the product that they believe will cover 100% of their needs while ignoring that 10-40% of those needs are extremely intermittent. Yes, trucks can be absolutely the right thing for hauling or towing (or both), or for moving specific types of material that either due to size or consistency can't really be moved in a typical car. They can be great for the great family camping trip with all that gear in the back and everyone else up front. And so on and so forth. The problem is that those things happen (for most people) in the low-single digit numbers of times per year. Nevertheless the culture provides many suggestions that you're better off owning a vehicle that can do all this, all year, despite the extra cost of fuel, extra threat to pedestrians and cyclists, extra up front cost and higher insurance. You don't have to be anti-car to see that owning a vehicle designed to cover all possible needs when most of the time you just commute in it doesn't make much sense.
- toast0 4y ago
  Renting a truck is a pain. A truck that meets your general driving needs and most of your hauling needs is an investment in being able to haul without planning. Flexibility has a price, but it also has benefits. Proper small trucks are good enough at hauling and get good enough gas mileage (especially if you get the 4-cylinder), and have great sight lines. It's way harder to see pedestrians and cyclists with a typical sedan with a raked windshield, huge pillars and not a big window right behind my head. Of course, nobody sells those anymore, so there's that. I'd like to own a box truck with a liftgate too, because those are really tough to track down on short notice, but they aren't very practical for day to day driving, and a vehicle that sits waiting for the day its useful is likely to develop problems.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
    > Renting a truck is a pain. I live 25 miles from Santa Fe, a city of 80k people (county is around 120k). I've rented pickups and box trucks twice a year +/- for the last 4 years. Each time, I drive (or cycle) into Santa Fe to one of two UHaul dealers with whom I've already booked the vehicle online. I spent less than 10 mins with the dealer, drive off in the truck for the 1/2 day or day, come back and head home. The rentals typically cost me about $60-80, and in almost every case, the rental place is closer to my reason for needing the vehicle than my home. Renting a truck might be a pain for you. It's not a pain for everyone. [ EDIT: The rest of the time I drive a Honda Fit which is flexible enough to let me do 75% of our recycling and garbage hauling, as well as move many, many other things around, and still get 36-38 mpg ]
recursivedoubts 4y ago
And I can't buy a reasonably sized, reliable 70 series land cruiser in the states because safety: https://www.toyota.com.au/landcruiser-70 https://www.toyota.com.au/landcruiser-70

33 points by throw0101a 4y ago

Article didn't mention CAFE (which is the reason for larger sizes) nor chicken tax (which makes, even if they qualified under CAFE, foreign small trucks economically non-viable). The demand for older compact S-10 and the old compact rangers is sky high. Make them legal again.

toast0 4y ago
I wonder if we'll see compact pickups as EVs (again, Ford had EV Rangers in the time of the EV-1); because CAFE doesn't drive design for EVs, afaik. Personally, I found my 2011 Ranger with the 4-cylinder engine to be fuel efficient enough, and did my light pickup work. I've now got a 2003 S-10 with a v6 and it's much less fuel efficient; I wish I had kept my Ranger, but it made sense to get rid of it at the time.
- wlesieutre 4y ago
  Ford filed a trademark on Maverick Lightning, and Chevy is kicking around the concept of a single cab, so it could happen https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/01/general-motors-is-investigating-small-ev-party-trucks/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/01/general-motors-is-inves...
moojd 4y ago
I would trade in my model y for a compact electric truck of similar spec and price if it existed. I live in a city and don't haul stuff most of the time, but every time I need to carry trash or dirt, make home depot runs, or move furniture I wish I had a truck.
- throw0101a 4y ago
  > […] but every time I need to carry trash or dirt, make home depot runs, or move furniture I wish I had a truck. If you actually read the article, you'll see that—going by usable length—pickup trucks are generally no longer thing-haulers but people-haulers, which kind of defeats the whole purpose of their form factor. If you want general hauling space/volume, your best best seems to be a (mini)van.
  - notch898a 4y ago
    But the bed used to be where the people went too. Then they made that illegal. When I was a kid it was pretty common to just sit in the bed, now you have to have a cab big enough for everyone to keep from getting a ticket.
    - bagels 4y ago
      It also keeps people from getting dead, not simply to ruin your nostalgia.
      - notch898a 4y ago
        I'm pointing out it's a ridiculous nostalgia to think back about the days when the truck wasn't a people hauler. It was. They just made the bed an illegal place to put the people. Making the cab longer isn't to ruin people's nostalgia. It's to deal with the legal requirements for transporting passengers. You're illustrating my point. We shouldn't be outraged when you make something illegal and the vehicle is adapted to deal with that. Why would we be upset about fewer people getting dead, shouldn't we be happy about bigger cabs if that's the case?
        throw0101a 4y ago
        > It's to deal with the legal requirements for transporting passengers. In 1982 the top selling vehicle in the US was the Ford Escort. In 2022 it was the Ford F-150. People were hauled in the Escort just fine (and probably more comfortably in the rain and winter). The F-150 wasn't adapted to better haul people because changes to safety laws: it was adapted do help profit margins.
    - bryanlarsen 4y ago
      I also did that as a kid, until the day after my neighbor's wife died while doing that.
  - moojd 4y ago
    No, I don't need volume. I want to haul things that I do not want inside of the cabin (trash, dirt, gravel, wild game, dirty camping equipment, muddy boots, etc.)
throw0101a 4y ago
> Article didn't mention CAFE (which is the reason for larger sizes) nor chicken tax (which makes, even if they qualified under CAFE, foreign small trucks economically non-viable). I was pointed to the article from the just-posted Not Just Bikes video "These Stupid Trucks are Literally Killing Us", which does go over those things: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo The point of the Axios article, which comes up at the 25m25s point in the NJB video, goes towards the point that the pickup truck has actually become less practical over the decades. And to the idea that most folks would be better served with a station wagon or perhaps a minivan. Trucks have gone from the cargo bed being >60% of the usable length (ignoring the engine), to the (crew) cab being >60% of the useable length. Pickup trucks gone from thing-haulers to people-haulers, in which case, why bother with that form factor?
- notch898a 4y ago
  >Trucks have gone from the cargo bed being >60% of the usable length (ignoring the engine), to the (crew) cab being >60% of the useable length. Pickup trucks gone from thing-haulers to people-haulers, in which case, why bother with that form factor? The bed was always a mixed-use people hauler. Then they made that illegal. Go to Mexico, Iraq, Philippines and other places where it's still tolerated or legal in most places and the bed continues to be a people hauler. It's in part the cab got bigger because you couldn't put the people in the bed anymore, not because more people started riding in the trucks. If you want more bed and less cab again, make it legal for the passengers, kids, etc to ride in the bed again. Like we did when I was a kid. If not, don't be surprised when you make something illegal people adapt the vehicle to deal with it.
  - throw0101a 4y ago
    > If you want more bed and less cab again, make it legal for the passengers, kids, etc to ride in the bed again. Like we did when I was a kid. If not, don't be surprised when you make something illegal people adapt the vehicle to deal with it. Ah yes: let's drive down the interstate at ≥60 mph (100kph) to grandma's house with all the kids in the bed. Great idea. Would you like to also bring back leaded gasoline? Or perhaps non-farmers / non-construction workers can stop pretending they regularly need a cargo bed and get a station wagon or minivan. The top-selling car in 2022 was the Ford F-150, the top selling car in 1982 was Ford Escort: I'm having a hard time believing that people's hauling needs have changed in the intervening decades to rationally justify the sales figures.
Syonyk 4y ago
> The demand for older compact S-10 and the old compact rangers is sky high. Make them legal again. Wouldn't the Ford Maverick be the modern version of these? It comes in two different forms as far as I can tell - the "truck shaped car" (FWD, hybrid powertrain), and the "small truck" form (4WD, no hybrid, rather lower fuel economy), depending on what you need it to do. And in a small truck, I think FWD vs the 2WD/RWD Rangers is probably the right option - some of those were pretty tail happy in the slick.
- renewiltord 4y ago
  If the Maverick were slightly less tall and (more importantly) 2 door or crew-cab they would be a lot more useful. The usable bed is so small you can't get anything done. Instead I have to wait for a good condition 20-30 year old Ford Ranger.
  - ticviking 4y ago
    That or a Toyota Tacoma in the same age range. I've been keeping my eye out for a Ridgeline also, something in that "I do enough on my land to need a hauler but I'm more ex-urban than rural, and don't load the whole bed with projects but once a year"
twblalock 4y ago
> The demand for older compact S-10 and the old compact rangers is sky high. Make them legal again. Nothing made them illegal. The Tacoma got quite a lot bigger, and the S-10 was replaced by the Colorado, because consumers wanted larger trucks. I think there is some demand for small trucks, but not enough to get the automakers to manufacture them again. The Ford Courier seems to be doing alright, but I'm not seeing any of the other automakers copying it.
ticviking 4y ago
This matches my experience. The number of farmers I know who are running 20+ year old pickups because they can't find any suitable replacement at all is too darn high

bob1029 4y ago

A major thing I see pushing people towards trucks is the amazing ride the latest generation offers. Going on long-distance road trips in something like a 2022 model year pickup truck is pretty close to the most comfortable setup available for < $100k. I don't know of any "luxury" cars that ride better today, even for multiples of the 100k limit. That said, everything else about them is pretty awful. I own one and I mostly hate it until I find myself halfway between Houston and Austin. If I have to drive downtown all day I would much prefer an older, smaller sports car or sedan.

bryanlarsen 4y ago
"Real" trucks have awful rides. Their suspensions are tuned for heavy loads so when they're not heavily loaded the springs are so stiff that it feels like they don't have any.
- kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
  Lots of pseudo-truck SUVs have horrible stiff suspension all the time. Moreso when coupled with fashionabe low profile tires.
- cgh 4y ago
  Yeah my Frontier, which is only a mid-size, is so stiff I can feel absolutely everything. Washboarded logging roads, on which this truck spends much of its time, can be a chore as the truck bounces and jumps around. But because it’s tuned so stiff, it also hauls nearly as much as a 3.3L F-150. That said, I can’t imagine using a truck as a daily driver if I lived in a city. The turning radius on my truck is terrible, for example, making tight turns impossible.

jmclnx 4y ago

Saying this as a white collar work, but I now drive a econ-auto. I kind of think it has to do with many white collar workers wanting to look tough and maybe wanting to look like they do real work. But, I hate the "drive like a car" trend for Trucks. I drove a Jeep CJ-7 for almost 20 years, but when it failed catastrophically, I went to an econ-car because all the new jeeps were really just cars. That means, no manual locking hubs, automatic transmission, no manual steering and no plugs in the floor to let out water. It is impossible to get a Real Jeep now. And I believe the same is for pickups. The CJ nad no radio, driving faster then 50-60 mph (80-100 kph) was not recommended. Nevermind the how expensive Jeeps and Pickups are these days. In the 70s/80s, these were cheap compared to Luxury Autos. Pet-peeve time: Why do people in pickups slow down to 1 m/kph on speed bumps ? If driving a truck, no need for that when my car has no issues (for 10 years+) going faster than that.

bityard 4y ago
> Why do people in pickups slow down to 1 m/kph on speed bumps I always have a little giggle when I see a ten ton Escalade swerve to miss a pothole.

coreyp_1 4y ago

First, I want to say that this article was horrendous to read. I gave up on it when it hijacked the scroll. I drive a Silverado Truck, 4-door. Why? Because when I go places, if someone else is with me, they are an adult, and so I got a vehicle that is comfortable for adults to ride in, whether they are in the front or back. Also, I don't have anyone else to rely on when I need to pick up furniture, or mulch, or wood, or anything else. I'm also a decently-sized guy. When I have to take a long trip, I want to be comfortable. I don't want to feel like I'm riding in a go-cart for hours. I appreciate the safety of having a larger vehicle when traffic is tight. I like having a larger vehicle. I have driven smaller sports cars, too, but they are never as comfortable as my truck. I've only been in one accident with it. I was parked, legally, in front of my house and a woman, driving the opposite direction in a SUV, hit the curb on her right, came across the road, and ran into my truck. That's why you get insurance! I still love driving my truck!

twobitshifter 4y ago
In all but the most remote places you can rent a truck or van nearby. Home Depot rents them for $20. They’ll have a much longer bed than your truck. I usually get one with a ten foot bed, flip down sides and ramps built-in. I did the math and to make a truck more affordable than renting I would have to be hauling things almost every single day. When I need to buy furniture, we get a u-haul box truck which is really the best for moving that type of stuff. You can do it anytime of year, in any weather, it’s huge, and everything is easily secured.
- calculatte 4y ago
  That thinking falls apart pretty quickly. Why own a car at all? You could just call an Uber every time you need a ride and it would be affordable than paying for a car, insurance, fuel, maintenance. House? How excessive. Just rent a small apartment instead. You don't need a yard, multiple bedrooms. You can go to a park instead and put multiple sleeping bags on the floor. People are free to buy whatever they feel is appropriate for them.
  - 4y ago

vanilla_nut 4y ago

Not Just Bikes video on the same subject today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo It's crazy to see how much trucks have blown up in the last few years. They clog up parking lots, barely fit in parking garages (let alone personal garages), blind me at night with their too-high too-bright headlights, and completely block cross-street vision for anything except other trucks when they park on the street. A complete failure of US govt regulation. At this point I hope gas prices go through the roof and punish these truck owners for their selfish decisionmaking.

yowzadave 4y ago
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- twblalock 4y ago
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  - throw0101a 4y ago
    > That's funny, because if you look at things from a bird's eye view quite a few SUVs take up less space than a Camry. They are just taller. > But let's be honest, you didn't actually care about that. The long Camry would be charged just as much as the long truck if that's the system we went with, and would be completely fair. And a Camry is 0.25cm longer than a RAV4: * https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/toyota-corolla-2017-sedan-vs-toyota-rav4-2019-suv-swb/ https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/toyota-corolla-2017... But a Ford F-150 (the #1 selling vehicle in the US in 2022) is 1m longer than a Camry (plus wider): * https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/toyota-corolla-2017-sedan-vs-ford-f150-2014-4-door-pickup-supercrew-5.5/ https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/toyota-corolla-2017...
  - freetime2 4y ago
    > But let's be honest, you didn't actually care about that. You just hate large vehicles and you believe you should be able to control the decisions other people make. That is a bad impulse and the government should not enable it. There's no reason to be like this. The parent is just pointing out an external cost of driving larger vehicles and suggesting a mechanism to pass on some of the cost to the owner. They did not suggest that a Camry should somehow be exempt from this same requirement. For what it's worth I drive a large vehicle. In my country I do pay a larger registration tax for the priviledge to drive it, and I was also required to prove that I had a place to park it when I bought it (street parking isn't really a thing here). This doesn't bother me in the least, because I recognize that there are real social costs associated with driving a larger vehicle, and I am happy to pay my fair share.

bityard 4y ago

I've lived in the US my whole life and even _I_ think America's car culture is bananas. Here are a couple of loosely-related rants. Almost everywhere in the world, cars are a means to get around and occasionally carry things. But in the US, cars are status symbols first and transportation second. We're conditioned to buy as much car as we can afford via advertising, cultural pressure, and low-interest loans. Or even to buy cars when we don't actually need them. (If you live in a city with a subway, you don't actually need a car, you just want one. Your family probably does not need a car for every member of the household. Etc.) Our mass transit is in a shambles because of the insanity of car culture. Except for a few HCOL cities, mass transit is essentially considered to be a service for the poor. Gas prices in the US are embarrassingly low. They are subsidized by the government in various often invisible forms, at the behest of the oil and auto industries. The auto industries have an interest in keeping gas prices low because it means they can convince buys to pony up for ever-increasing vehicle sizes. The "true" price of gas nowadays is somewhere north of $7-8 a gallon and that's not including the inevitable cost of cleaning up the atmosphere, whenever we decide to get serious about that. Where I grew up in the 80's and 90's, you were either a Chevy or a Ford person. Weirdest form of brand loyalty ever. I didn't even know foreign brands sold cars here until after I graduated high school and started seeing more of the country. I never moved back but I visit every few years and there are still no foreign dealerships outside of the major cities. I really want to like electric cars (and trucks, sure) but I don't like that you don't really "own" them. I don't know of any that you can buy that don't require signing up with the manufacturer and having to install an app on your phone, or have the car permanently connected to the cloud via mobile network, just to drive and charge the damn thing.

yowzadave 4y ago
Generally I agree with this statement, but this comment seemed a bit off: > I never moved back but I visit every few years and there are still no foreign dealerships outside of the major cities. Of the 10 most popular cars in the US, 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 10 are foreign brands: https://insurify.com/insights/most-popular-cars-2022/ https://insurify.com/insights/most-popular-cars-2022/
ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago
We love cars because when we travel, we want privacy. Mass transit might be good but it is something which goes against American individualism. I don't want to smell someone else's body odour throughout a 5 hour journey.

rybosworld 4y ago

Mid-size trucks like the Tacoma and Ranger are fantastic imo. They are perfect for 95% of "truck stuff". The full-size category has really become about excess, which I think this article is getting at.

Tiktaalik 4y ago
The Tacoma and Ranger have ballooned in size though. They have many of the same core problems as the full size trucks.
neogodless 4y ago
The 2023 Chevrolet Colorado is 4,900 lbs and larger than the 2018 Silverado (work truck/regular cab) in every dimension except width (it's about 6" more narrow.) (The Tacoma and Ranger will get new designs for 2024, and likely catch up on size!)
hindsightbias 4y ago
It's 99% excess. Most cars are good enough for 95% urban cowboy "truck" stuff. Can't fit a sheet of plywood flat in a taco or ranger and they get maybe 17 mpg. Even in TX, the parking lots are filled with tacos that have pristine, empty beds and off-road tires that have never seen a gravel/dirt road or back-country. Farm kids would have beaten me up if I'd showed up to school with a shiny taco like that and a big belt buckle.
- PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
  > Can't fit a sheet of plywood flat Reminds me to note that the Honda Civic hatchback from the late 1980s could in fact fit 4'x8' sheet goods in the back quite easily (it also got > 40mpg)
  - twblalock 4y ago
    That's absolute nonsense. I would believe you could get a 4-foot-wide item in a Civic. There is no way on earth you could get a 4x8 sheet inside one of those cars. Also, if you got t-boned by a Tahoe they would need to identify your body with dental records. Those things were basically street-legal go karts.

snozolli 4y ago

There should be an additional licensing requirement for any vehicle over 5,000 pounds, with stiffer penalties and restrictions. Like commercial-lite. For context, the Ford F-150 is 4,021 to 5,740 lbs, and the F250 is 5,677 to 7,538 lbs. (I say that as someone with a ~5,300 pound Land Cruiser) The upcoming electric Hummer will weigh 9,640 pounds and do 0-60 in 3.3 seconds. Hopefully the high price will keep them rare.

twblalock 4y ago

It's funny to see how people who hate trucks are now carping about things like parking space now that electric trucks make gas mileage and emissions irrelevant. It's not wrong to like trucks. If we could just agree on that, the discourse wouldn't be so ridiculous. I personally don't have a truck, I don't like driving trucks, and I don't feel the need to own one. But I can also recognize that other reasonable people need or want trucks and that's fine. Sometimes I need to move a couch or a stack of drywall and I'm glad someone has a truck.

moojd 4y ago
Trucks and bicycles are just proxies for the broader culture war. As some one who likes trucks AND rides bicycles, I'm used to getting massive amounts of hate from both sides lol.
freetime2 4y ago
> electric trucks make gas mileage and emissions irrelevant. The majority of pickups being sold are still ICE, so gas mileage and emissions are definitely still relevant. Also, electricity needs to come from somewhere, and for now it still comes mainly from burning fossil fuels. So miles per kWh and their associated emissions are still relevant when it comes to EVs. > But I can also recognize that other reasonable people need or want trucks and that's fine. I agree it's not for me to decide what kind of car or truck other people should drive. But I do think the government should at least structure taxes and laws to incentivize people to drive cars with fewer social costs (emissions, safety of others in a collision, road wear, parking space, etc). Currently the US government is doing the opposite, by offering a larger tax credit for EV Trucks and SUVs, for example.
lamontcg 4y ago
> Sometimes I need to move a couch or a stack of drywall and I'm glad someone has a truck. Better find someone with an old truck since those won't fit in the bed of a new one.
- jjav 4y ago
  > Better find someone with an old truck since those won't fit in the bed of a new one. You can easily buy new long bed trucks today. I guess you're referring to how so many people are buying short bed trucks. Which I agree doesn't make sense. If you're going to get a truck, might as well maximize it's usefulness as a truck which is the whole point.

PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago

IMO, trucks in the US are in large part an expression of the unfortunate tendency of people (especially Americans) to try to buy the product that they believe will cover 100% of their needs while ignoring that 10-40% of those needs are extremely intermittent. Yes, trucks can be absolutely the right thing for hauling or towing (or both), or for moving specific types of material that either due to size or consistency can't really be moved in a typical car. They can be great for the great family camping trip with all that gear in the back and everyone else up front. And so on and so forth. The problem is that those things happen (for most people) in the low-single digit numbers of times per year. Nevertheless the culture provides many suggestions that you're better off owning a vehicle that can do all this, all year, despite the extra cost of fuel, extra threat to pedestrians and cyclists, extra up front cost and higher insurance. You don't have to be anti-car to see that owning a vehicle designed to cover all possible needs when most of the time you just commute in it doesn't make much sense.

toast0 4y ago
Renting a truck is a pain. A truck that meets your general driving needs and most of your hauling needs is an investment in being able to haul without planning. Flexibility has a price, but it also has benefits. Proper small trucks are good enough at hauling and get good enough gas mileage (especially if you get the 4-cylinder), and have great sight lines. It's way harder to see pedestrians and cyclists with a typical sedan with a raked windshield, huge pillars and not a big window right behind my head. Of course, nobody sells those anymore, so there's that. I'd like to own a box truck with a liftgate too, because those are really tough to track down on short notice, but they aren't very practical for day to day driving, and a vehicle that sits waiting for the day its useful is likely to develop problems.
- PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
  > Renting a truck is a pain. I live 25 miles from Santa Fe, a city of 80k people (county is around 120k). I've rented pickups and box trucks twice a year +/- for the last 4 years. Each time, I drive (or cycle) into Santa Fe to one of two UHaul dealers with whom I've already booked the vehicle online. I spent less than 10 mins with the dealer, drive off in the truck for the 1/2 day or day, come back and head home. The rentals typically cost me about $60-80, and in almost every case, the rental place is closer to my reason for needing the vehicle than my home. Renting a truck might be a pain for you. It's not a pain for everyone. [ EDIT: The rest of the time I drive a Honda Fit which is flexible enough to let me do 75% of our recycling and garbage hauling, as well as move many, many other things around, and still get 36-38 mpg ]

recursivedoubts 4y ago

And I can't buy a reasonably sized, reliable 70 series land cruiser in the states because safety: https://www.toyota.com.au/landcruiser-70 https://www.toyota.com.au/landcruiser-70