8 ms·

The US should cap exports of wild fish. The US actually doesn't eat that much seafood, and most of the seafood captured along the Pacific is sent to China and

The US should cap exports of wild fish. The US actually doesn't eat that much seafood, and most of the seafood captured along the Pacific is sent to China and other importers. We're destroying our local ecosystems for a quick buck, and a cap on exports would be the quickest fix. In the long term we should turn more to fish farms.

berkle4455 4y ago
Very similar to tree nut exports in California and the corresponding water crisis.
- nradov 4y ago
  From the perspective of water use, the alfalfa that California exports to Saudi Arabia is even worse than tree nuts.
  - kolanos 4y ago
    Alfalfa is one of the most water efficient crops widely grown. Considerably more efficient than corn, rice, wheat, etc. And while California may export a lot of its alfalfa, it's the exception relative to the rest of the nation. > Based on USDA data for 2021, only 3.9% of all U.S. hay produced and 6.4% of all alfalfa hay entered the export market. [0]: https://www.hayandforage.com/article-3825-Year-end-hay-exports-set-new-records.html#:~:text=Based%20on%20USDA%20data%20for,impacting%20both%20markets%20and%20prices https://www.hayandforage.com/article-3825-Year-end-hay-expor....
    - nradov 4y ago
      Efficient by what metric? Calories? Weight? Profitability? The problem is that due to the system of water rights and allocations, California is effectively subsidizing Saudi Arabia by selling water to local farmers at below market rates. Thus we have a water shortage which impacts everyone while benefiting only a tiny number of farmers. https://www.desertsun.com/story/opinion/contributors/valley-voice/2023/02/05/growing-alfalfa-in-imperial-county-and-california-wastes-water/69860506007/ https://www.desertsun.com/story/opinion/contributors/valley-...
      - kolanos 4y ago
        > Deep-Rootedness—alfalfa roots are commonly 3-5 feet deep and can extend to 8-15 feet in some soils. Therefore this crop can utilize moisture residing deep in the profile when surface waters become scarce. It shares this property with crops such as orchards, vineyards, and sugarbeets and safflower, unlike crops such as onion, lettuce and corn, where it's easy to lose water past the root zone. > Alfalfa's deep roots are capable of extracting water from deep in the soil, thus much of the water applied is not wasted. Additionally, deep roots enable the crop to survive periodic droughts. > Perenniality—The fact that the crop grows for 4-8 years, grows quickly with warm conditions in the spring is a major advantage of alfalfa—it can utilize residual winter rainfall before irrigation is necessary. This is unlike summer-grown annual crops that need to be replanted each year (water use efficacy is low during this time). In many areas, the first cutting of alfalfa of the year requires zero irrigation– supported only by rain and residual soil moisture. > Very High Yields—Alfalfa is a very high yielding crop, and can grow 365 days a year in warm regions (such as the Imperial Valley of California and southern Arizona). Its biomass yields are very high—we can get up to 12 cuttings per year in those regions, and growers with top management can obtain more than 14 tons/acre dry matter yields. High-yields create higher water use efficiencies. > High Harvest Index, High Water Use Efficiency—Alfalfa's Water Use Efficiency is not only due to high yields, but because nearly 100% of the above-ground plant material is harvested (known as the harvest index). In most seed-producing and fruiting crops, only a portion of the plant is harvested (typically 30-50% of the total plant biomass). [0]: https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=17721 https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=1772...
      - kolanos 4y ago
        > The problem is that due to the system of water rights and allocations, California is effectively subsidizing Saudi Arabia by selling water to local farmers at below market rates. Thus we have a water shortage which impacts everyone while benefiting only a tiny number of farmers. The problem is that farmers are being blamed for poor city planning and management. Los Angeles, for example, lets tens of billions of gallons of fresh water flow into the ocean. [0] The farmers are at least using the 40% share of the water they get and in return Californians get affordable food. > According to the Pacific Institute, California's urban areas are letting between 770,000 and 3.9 million acre-feet of water spill away every year (depending on how dry or wet the year is). [0]: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/13/us/california-drought-storms-water-storage.html#:~:text=9%20storm%20alone%2C%20public%20works,from%20the%20Los%20Angeles%20River https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/13/us/california-drought-sto.... [1]: https://www.latimes.com/california/newsletter/2023-01-16/essential-california-stormwater-capture-essential-california#:~:text=It's%20hard%20to%20determine%20how,or%20wet%20the%20year%20is) https://www.latimes.com/california/newsletter/2023-01-16/ess....
  - beauzero 4y ago
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/25/california-water-drought-scarce-saudi-arabia https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/25/california-w...
JKCalhoun 4y ago
I worked summers in Homer, Alaska at the cannery (four decades ago, before it burned down). Herring season was interesting since all the herring roe went, apparently, to Japan. A Japanese inspector would arrive and test the herring that the cannery had stored in large brine vats, stacked around the facility. Only when he said it was "ripe" would we begin processing (separating) the roe from the herring. The non-egg part of the processing was, I was told, to become crab bait or cat food.
- metadat 4y ago
  Are you saying sushi roe gets fermented (or cured) while still inside the fish carcass?
  - JKCalhoun 4y ago
    For herring, yes. I can't speak to salmon roe.
    - welder 4y ago
      Salmon roe gets pulled out of the fish as soon as it's off the boat, soaked in brine for about 10 minutes, then packaged for shipping.
- dendrite9 4y ago
  Was this just harvesting roe and then turning the herring into bait/cat food? Or am I misunderstanding. Did the roe on kelp fishery even exist at that time? It seems very few of my friends kept fishing in Alaska as we got older. I suspect that is normal, but a few friends still go up to work summers. Sometimes I wish I had gone up to do it.
  - JKCalhoun 4y ago
    Yeah, that is true. The herring that was left after the roe was removed was not in great shape (having soaked in brine so long). Certainly edible by crabs though.
RajT88 4y ago
Indeed, this is happening: https://www.statista.com/chart/2280/the-global-fish-farming-industry-is-booming/ https://www.statista.com/chart/2280/the-global-fish-farming-... China's being smart about it too - they are farming fish which are ubiquitous and easy to farm (Carp and Tilapia): https://thechinaguys.com/aquaculture-in-china/ https://thechinaguys.com/aquaculture-in-china/ China could do a much better job at regulating their fishing industry though... In the West we eat Tilapia, but we probably should learn to eat Carp. Unfortunately as a family of fish, it gets a bad rap for a few reasons (Americans don't like bones, Carp has a low-class association, Carp can be "muddy" if not raised and prepared right).
- jhickok 4y ago
  We grew up eating carp out of the Mississippi river. Certainly not great, but easy enough to put in a smoker. In fact, it's a relatively common dish in certain communities along the river, and you can find smoked carp in gas stations and grocery stores in the region.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - RajT88 4y ago
    Which region? I live a few hours from the Mississippi, but up north in northern IL, and it runs for quite a ways further north than even me. I will have to pick up some smoked carp if I make it to said area. I've never seen it for sale. The only time I've seen Carp for sale period is in Asian supermarkets.
    - jhickok 4y ago
      I am not super familiar with anything south of Dubuque, but Highway 35 between Prairie du Chien and ending with Lacrosse Wi is full of a number of small river towns that sell it (or at least did when I was growing up there). De Soto and Genoa are the two that had a lot of river catfish and carp, both smoked and sitting in grocer's fridge units.
    - 4y ago
rich_sasha 4y ago
Without meaning to judge, the US as a whole seems happy to overexploit itself at the expense of its citizens. Fisheries would be one example, agriculture which a sibling comment mentioned, another. But it's also pollution, labour laws, access to housing. It's tricky because the US is literally the most powerful economy ever, so it must be doing something right, equally it seems other countries care more about their citizens. Not China or North Korea ofc but Europe or Canada etc.
- advantager 4y ago
  And minerals and petroluem
- halfdan 4y ago
  I obviously have nothing to back this up with, but my instinct is that it’s the over exploitation that makes it such a powerful economy. But just like Saudi Arabia’s oil it will eventually stop being a sustainable source for the economy. Alaskan fisheries collapsing, rivers that support water hungry crops in the desert running dry might be first indicators of many that things are collapsing.
  - frozenport 4y ago
    The value of some large tech companies is orders of magnitude above the entire Alaska fishery. The US’s wealth is in it’s people not it’s fisheries.
    - Jensson 4y ago
      I think they meant the political climate in USA where corporate profits is the top of every political agenda, that helps all companies and not just Alaskan fisheries. If the government listened more to workers then USA probably wouldn't be as dominant as it is.
      - mgraczyk 4y ago
        On the other hand, the servers at restaurants in SF make more than most software engineers in Western Europe now. So probably good to focus a little more on economic growth.
awhitby 4y ago
It's more complicated than that, because there is a substantial trade in fish export to China, where processing happens, followed by re-export back to the US. 2019 figures: * U.S. commercial fishermen landed 9.3 billion pounds of seafood * Americans consumed 6.3 billion pounds of seafood Given imports are more processed than exports, a part of that difference is presumably waste & less desirable byproducts. So it seems fair to conclude that the US eats pretty close to the amount of seafood that it produces. In $ terms (because of the value add of processing), US seafood imports are roughly 4x exports. Source: https://media.fisheries.noaa.gov/2021-05/fus-2019-fact-sheet-v4.2-webready.pdf https://media.fisheries.noaa.gov/2021-05/fus-2019-fact-sheet...
quest88 4y ago
Capping may be good, but what will people do for their livelihood that depend on this?
giantg2 4y ago
"and a cap on exports would be the quickest fix." One complexity with this plan is that the vast majority of the seafood processing occurs overseas. We export fish to China to be processed, then ship it back.
- nick123567 4y ago
  Sounds like a great way to onshore some industry for american labor market.
yowzadave 4y ago
Haven't the Faroe Islands managed to develop a highly profitable and sustainable salmon aquaculture? Let's hope it's not too much to ask Alaskans to learn from what has been done successfully in other parts of the world.
Gys 4y ago
> We're destroying our local ecosystems for a quick buck Sadly, that happens all over the world. 'We' prefer to not see long term effects for having a 'better' life now.

berkle4455 4y ago

Very similar to tree nut exports in California and the corresponding water crisis.

nradov 4y ago
From the perspective of water use, the alfalfa that California exports to Saudi Arabia is even worse than tree nuts.
- kolanos 4y ago
  Alfalfa is one of the most water efficient crops widely grown. Considerably more efficient than corn, rice, wheat, etc. And while California may export a lot of its alfalfa, it's the exception relative to the rest of the nation. > Based on USDA data for 2021, only 3.9% of all U.S. hay produced and 6.4% of all alfalfa hay entered the export market. [0]: https://www.hayandforage.com/article-3825-Year-end-hay-exports-set-new-records.html#:~:text=Based%20on%20USDA%20data%20for,impacting%20both%20markets%20and%20prices https://www.hayandforage.com/article-3825-Year-end-hay-expor....
  - nradov 4y ago
    Efficient by what metric? Calories? Weight? Profitability? The problem is that due to the system of water rights and allocations, California is effectively subsidizing Saudi Arabia by selling water to local farmers at below market rates. Thus we have a water shortage which impacts everyone while benefiting only a tiny number of farmers. https://www.desertsun.com/story/opinion/contributors/valley-voice/2023/02/05/growing-alfalfa-in-imperial-county-and-california-wastes-water/69860506007/ https://www.desertsun.com/story/opinion/contributors/valley-...
    - kolanos 4y ago
      > Deep-Rootedness—alfalfa roots are commonly 3-5 feet deep and can extend to 8-15 feet in some soils. Therefore this crop can utilize moisture residing deep in the profile when surface waters become scarce. It shares this property with crops such as orchards, vineyards, and sugarbeets and safflower, unlike crops such as onion, lettuce and corn, where it's easy to lose water past the root zone. > Alfalfa's deep roots are capable of extracting water from deep in the soil, thus much of the water applied is not wasted. Additionally, deep roots enable the crop to survive periodic droughts. > Perenniality—The fact that the crop grows for 4-8 years, grows quickly with warm conditions in the spring is a major advantage of alfalfa—it can utilize residual winter rainfall before irrigation is necessary. This is unlike summer-grown annual crops that need to be replanted each year (water use efficacy is low during this time). In many areas, the first cutting of alfalfa of the year requires zero irrigation– supported only by rain and residual soil moisture. > Very High Yields—Alfalfa is a very high yielding crop, and can grow 365 days a year in warm regions (such as the Imperial Valley of California and southern Arizona). Its biomass yields are very high—we can get up to 12 cuttings per year in those regions, and growers with top management can obtain more than 14 tons/acre dry matter yields. High-yields create higher water use efficiencies. > High Harvest Index, High Water Use Efficiency—Alfalfa's Water Use Efficiency is not only due to high yields, but because nearly 100% of the above-ground plant material is harvested (known as the harvest index). In most seed-producing and fruiting crops, only a portion of the plant is harvested (typically 30-50% of the total plant biomass). [0]: https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=17721 https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=1772...
    - kolanos 4y ago
      > The problem is that due to the system of water rights and allocations, California is effectively subsidizing Saudi Arabia by selling water to local farmers at below market rates. Thus we have a water shortage which impacts everyone while benefiting only a tiny number of farmers. The problem is that farmers are being blamed for poor city planning and management. Los Angeles, for example, lets tens of billions of gallons of fresh water flow into the ocean. [0] The farmers are at least using the 40% share of the water they get and in return Californians get affordable food. > According to the Pacific Institute, California's urban areas are letting between 770,000 and 3.9 million acre-feet of water spill away every year (depending on how dry or wet the year is). [0]: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/13/us/california-drought-storms-water-storage.html#:~:text=9%20storm%20alone%2C%20public%20works,from%20the%20Los%20Angeles%20River https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/13/us/california-drought-sto.... [1]: https://www.latimes.com/california/newsletter/2023-01-16/essential-california-stormwater-capture-essential-california#:~:text=It's%20hard%20to%20determine%20how,or%20wet%20the%20year%20is) https://www.latimes.com/california/newsletter/2023-01-16/ess....
- beauzero 4y ago
  https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/25/california-water-drought-scarce-saudi-arabia https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/25/california-w...

JKCalhoun 4y ago

I worked summers in Homer, Alaska at the cannery (four decades ago, before it burned down). Herring season was interesting since all the herring roe went, apparently, to Japan. A Japanese inspector would arrive and test the herring that the cannery had stored in large brine vats, stacked around the facility. Only when he said it was "ripe" would we begin processing (separating) the roe from the herring. The non-egg part of the processing was, I was told, to become crab bait or cat food.

metadat 4y ago
Are you saying sushi roe gets fermented (or cured) while still inside the fish carcass?
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  For herring, yes. I can't speak to salmon roe.
  - welder 4y ago
    Salmon roe gets pulled out of the fish as soon as it's off the boat, soaked in brine for about 10 minutes, then packaged for shipping.
dendrite9 4y ago
Was this just harvesting roe and then turning the herring into bait/cat food? Or am I misunderstanding. Did the roe on kelp fishery even exist at that time? It seems very few of my friends kept fishing in Alaska as we got older. I suspect that is normal, but a few friends still go up to work summers. Sometimes I wish I had gone up to do it.
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  Yeah, that is true. The herring that was left after the roe was removed was not in great shape (having soaked in brine so long). Certainly edible by crabs though.

RajT88 4y ago

Indeed, this is happening: https://www.statista.com/chart/2280/the-global-fish-farming-industry-is-booming/ https://www.statista.com/chart/2280/the-global-fish-farming-... China's being smart about it too - they are farming fish which are ubiquitous and easy to farm (Carp and Tilapia): https://thechinaguys.com/aquaculture-in-china/ https://thechinaguys.com/aquaculture-in-china/ China could do a much better job at regulating their fishing industry though... In the West we eat Tilapia, but we probably should learn to eat Carp. Unfortunately as a family of fish, it gets a bad rap for a few reasons (Americans don't like bones, Carp has a low-class association, Carp can be "muddy" if not raised and prepared right).

jhickok 4y ago
We grew up eating carp out of the Mississippi river. Certainly not great, but easy enough to put in a smoker. In fact, it's a relatively common dish in certain communities along the river, and you can find smoked carp in gas stations and grocery stores in the region.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- RajT88 4y ago
  Which region? I live a few hours from the Mississippi, but up north in northern IL, and it runs for quite a ways further north than even me. I will have to pick up some smoked carp if I make it to said area. I've never seen it for sale. The only time I've seen Carp for sale period is in Asian supermarkets.
  - jhickok 4y ago
    I am not super familiar with anything south of Dubuque, but Highway 35 between Prairie du Chien and ending with Lacrosse Wi is full of a number of small river towns that sell it (or at least did when I was growing up there). De Soto and Genoa are the two that had a lot of river catfish and carp, both smoked and sitting in grocer's fridge units.
  - 4y ago

rich_sasha 4y ago

Without meaning to judge, the US as a whole seems happy to overexploit itself at the expense of its citizens. Fisheries would be one example, agriculture which a sibling comment mentioned, another. But it's also pollution, labour laws, access to housing. It's tricky because the US is literally the most powerful economy ever, so it must be doing something right, equally it seems other countries care more about their citizens. Not China or North Korea ofc but Europe or Canada etc.

advantager 4y ago
And minerals and petroluem
halfdan 4y ago
I obviously have nothing to back this up with, but my instinct is that it’s the over exploitation that makes it such a powerful economy. But just like Saudi Arabia’s oil it will eventually stop being a sustainable source for the economy. Alaskan fisheries collapsing, rivers that support water hungry crops in the desert running dry might be first indicators of many that things are collapsing.
- frozenport 4y ago
  The value of some large tech companies is orders of magnitude above the entire Alaska fishery. The US’s wealth is in it’s people not it’s fisheries.
  - Jensson 4y ago
    I think they meant the political climate in USA where corporate profits is the top of every political agenda, that helps all companies and not just Alaskan fisheries. If the government listened more to workers then USA probably wouldn't be as dominant as it is.
    - mgraczyk 4y ago
      On the other hand, the servers at restaurants in SF make more than most software engineers in Western Europe now. So probably good to focus a little more on economic growth.

awhitby 4y ago

It's more complicated than that, because there is a substantial trade in fish export to China, where processing happens, followed by re-export back to the US. 2019 figures: * U.S. commercial fishermen landed 9.3 billion pounds of seafood * Americans consumed 6.3 billion pounds of seafood Given imports are more processed than exports, a part of that difference is presumably waste & less desirable byproducts. So it seems fair to conclude that the US eats pretty close to the amount of seafood that it produces. In $ terms (because of the value add of processing), US seafood imports are roughly 4x exports. Source: https://media.fisheries.noaa.gov/2021-05/fus-2019-fact-sheet-v4.2-webready.pdf https://media.fisheries.noaa.gov/2021-05/fus-2019-fact-sheet...

quest88 4y ago

Capping may be good, but what will people do for their livelihood that depend on this?

giantg2 4y ago

"and a cap on exports would be the quickest fix." One complexity with this plan is that the vast majority of the seafood processing occurs overseas. We export fish to China to be processed, then ship it back.

nick123567 4y ago
Sounds like a great way to onshore some industry for american labor market.

yowzadave 4y ago

Haven't the Faroe Islands managed to develop a highly profitable and sustainable salmon aquaculture? Let's hope it's not too much to ask Alaskans to learn from what has been done successfully in other parts of the world.

Gys 4y ago

> We're destroying our local ecosystems for a quick buck Sadly, that happens all over the world. 'We' prefer to not see long term effects for having a 'better' life now.