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This argument is basically the same as teacher's argument that 'You'll not always have a calculator in your pocket'. And I suspect it will age equally badly.

sva_ 4y ago
I'd argue that using language is more innate than calculating things, and that practicing it may well contribute to being able to form more coherent thoughts/ideas. After all, language seems to be one of the biggest things setting humans apart from animals.
chattygpt 4y ago
That argument hasn’t really aged badly though. People do still study math in school..you still need to learn arithmetic. Not because you’ll necessarily need to be able to arithmetic without a calculator, but for the cognitive skills it’s training you in
- lumost 4y ago
  I was also terrible at arithmetic, my major was physics :shrug: I was also terrible at cursive, and prone to getting lost prior to GPS. I also never learned to carve a spear without modern power tools. I'm either a fool who's able to get by with modern technology - or we're freeing up mental capacity to work on new ideas. ChatGPT is yet another tool, one which is demonstrating productivity improvements comparable to the launch of the internet IMO.
anarticle 4y ago
This has not aged badly at all, you now have people who can not quickly add numbers together, or even figure out fractions. Example: My mom (Rhonda, 64) is the shop steward at a deli counter and had this conversation with her fellow employee Janice (25y): Janice: "Hey Rhonda, they want 2/3 of a pound of cheese. How much is that on the scale?" Rhonda (mom): "Janice, that's .66 on the scale." Janice: "Yea but why is it .66 on the scale if they want two thirds?" Rhonda: "Janice, you don't have to worry about that, just know that two thirds is .66." Janice: "Yeah, but HOW do you know that?" Rhonda: "..." I'm sure someone will say "Your mom is wrong because she should teach her fractions! What a huge jerk!" Note that this person has gone through high school, and children do this math regularly. What I am saying is, being numerate is useful at all levels of life, not just academic exercise.
- melagonster 4y ago
  people should learn how to use their computer everywhere.
  - anarticle 4y ago
    Sure, let me bust my phone calculator out in a deli with customers while wearing food service gloves. The model is very easy to break down, all to learn something ONCE. Here's the difference: You know fractions everywhere and you don't have to think about it more than 2s without your phone because you are math literate. OR Every time someone asks you something, you take 5s to pull out your phone type the numbers (hopefully correctly), and you get your decimal answer that you can hopefully interpret. Which do you think is a better employee overall? I have a particular axe to grind on this one, as the response "well I'll just look it up!" is so glib it throws the entire house out with the bathwater and the baby inside :). For day to day math, needing a calculator to do the basics is like walking instead of flying. Mastery of the basics really pays off, especially for young students.
noobermin 4y ago
It's funny you are trying to use this argument with me :) the value of mental math was instilled in me as a young man. When I am with family and buying things and they read out fractions or add up costs, they've developed the habit to defer to me to do mental arithmetic because taking out their phones to add things is tedious. Mental arithmetic is easier and requires no time punching in numbers. I have never used a calculator app on a phone, ever, at least I don't remember the last time I did. The only times where I need to add up a large set of numbers, I get in front of a computer and use a python repl or a spreadsheet, but even then I "pre-stage" the calculation by doing approximations in my head, so I'm sort of ready. Not letting your tools think for you is how you distinguish a professional from someone who can just push buttons. Don't disservice yourself by allowing yourself to never really learn to the limit of your abilities.
- throwaway675309 4y ago
  "because taking out their phones to add things is tedious. Mental arithmetic is easier and requires no time punching in numbers." This is a hilariously bad take. I'm sorry how long does it take to "punch in numbers"? Is it possible to fail touch typing class on a phone? The value in understanding mathematics is not the ability to be able to recite the quadratic formula or to be able to perform long division in your head, it's knowing when to use the formulas and understanding their applications in your daily life and work.
  - noobermin 4y ago
    Yes, it is quicker... I don't know if it is because you do not have such an experience to compare with but is quicker and easier. If your hands are full of things then it does save a few seconds. >The value in understanding mathematics is not the ability to be able to recite the quadratic formula or to be able to perform long division in your head, it's knowing when to use the formulas and understanding their applications in your daily life and work. You can do both, really. You should be able to recite the mathematics you use in your daily work without having to look it up. I've never met a good scientist who wasn't able to. EDIT: okay, may be one exception is for example something like tedious calculations from QFT or something, but you should be able to gesture at general parts of it, you should be able recite certain simple equations or particular approximations. If you have to refamiliarize yourself with your work every time you look at it, I do not know how you can advance in your research.

sva_ 4y ago

I'd argue that using language is more innate than calculating things, and that practicing it may well contribute to being able to form more coherent thoughts/ideas. After all, language seems to be one of the biggest things setting humans apart from animals.

chattygpt 4y ago

That argument hasn’t really aged badly though. People do still study math in school..you still need to learn arithmetic. Not because you’ll necessarily need to be able to arithmetic without a calculator, but for the cognitive skills it’s training you in

lumost 4y ago
I was also terrible at arithmetic, my major was physics :shrug: I was also terrible at cursive, and prone to getting lost prior to GPS. I also never learned to carve a spear without modern power tools. I'm either a fool who's able to get by with modern technology - or we're freeing up mental capacity to work on new ideas. ChatGPT is yet another tool, one which is demonstrating productivity improvements comparable to the launch of the internet IMO.

anarticle 4y ago

This has not aged badly at all, you now have people who can not quickly add numbers together, or even figure out fractions. Example: My mom (Rhonda, 64) is the shop steward at a deli counter and had this conversation with her fellow employee Janice (25y): Janice: "Hey Rhonda, they want 2/3 of a pound of cheese. How much is that on the scale?" Rhonda (mom): "Janice, that's .66 on the scale." Janice: "Yea but why is it .66 on the scale if they want two thirds?" Rhonda: "Janice, you don't have to worry about that, just know that two thirds is .66." Janice: "Yeah, but HOW do you know that?" Rhonda: "..." I'm sure someone will say "Your mom is wrong because she should teach her fractions! What a huge jerk!" Note that this person has gone through high school, and children do this math regularly. What I am saying is, being numerate is useful at all levels of life, not just academic exercise.

melagonster 4y ago
people should learn how to use their computer everywhere.
- anarticle 4y ago
  Sure, let me bust my phone calculator out in a deli with customers while wearing food service gloves. The model is very easy to break down, all to learn something ONCE. Here's the difference: You know fractions everywhere and you don't have to think about it more than 2s without your phone because you are math literate. OR Every time someone asks you something, you take 5s to pull out your phone type the numbers (hopefully correctly), and you get your decimal answer that you can hopefully interpret. Which do you think is a better employee overall? I have a particular axe to grind on this one, as the response "well I'll just look it up!" is so glib it throws the entire house out with the bathwater and the baby inside :). For day to day math, needing a calculator to do the basics is like walking instead of flying. Mastery of the basics really pays off, especially for young students.

noobermin 4y ago

It's funny you are trying to use this argument with me :) the value of mental math was instilled in me as a young man. When I am with family and buying things and they read out fractions or add up costs, they've developed the habit to defer to me to do mental arithmetic because taking out their phones to add things is tedious. Mental arithmetic is easier and requires no time punching in numbers. I have never used a calculator app on a phone, ever, at least I don't remember the last time I did. The only times where I need to add up a large set of numbers, I get in front of a computer and use a python repl or a spreadsheet, but even then I "pre-stage" the calculation by doing approximations in my head, so I'm sort of ready. Not letting your tools think for you is how you distinguish a professional from someone who can just push buttons. Don't disservice yourself by allowing yourself to never really learn to the limit of your abilities.

throwaway675309 4y ago
"because taking out their phones to add things is tedious. Mental arithmetic is easier and requires no time punching in numbers." This is a hilariously bad take. I'm sorry how long does it take to "punch in numbers"? Is it possible to fail touch typing class on a phone? The value in understanding mathematics is not the ability to be able to recite the quadratic formula or to be able to perform long division in your head, it's knowing when to use the formulas and understanding their applications in your daily life and work.
- noobermin 4y ago
  Yes, it is quicker... I don't know if it is because you do not have such an experience to compare with but is quicker and easier. If your hands are full of things then it does save a few seconds. >The value in understanding mathematics is not the ability to be able to recite the quadratic formula or to be able to perform long division in your head, it's knowing when to use the formulas and understanding their applications in your daily life and work. You can do both, really. You should be able to recite the mathematics you use in your daily work without having to look it up. I've never met a good scientist who wasn't able to. EDIT: okay, may be one exception is for example something like tedious calculations from QFT or something, but you should be able to gesture at general parts of it, you should be able recite certain simple equations or particular approximations. If you have to refamiliarize yourself with your work every time you look at it, I do not know how you can advance in your research.