9 ms·

That’s all nice in theory, but new college grads want to make as much as possible. They don’t do that by “arguing that gravity shouldn’t exist”. They do th

That’s all nice in theory, but new college grads want to make as much as possible. They don’t do that by “arguing that gravity shouldn’t exist”. They do that by playing by the rules as they exist. That means “grinding leetcode and working for a FAANG” (c) r/cscareerquestions. I am 25+ years in the industry. But if any new college grad asks me for my advice. That’s what I tell them. I definitely wouldn’t tell them to take a chance of working for any non public company hoping their “equity” may be worth something because they heard that early engineers at Uber struck it rich.

mountainriver 4y ago
Having worked at a couple big tech companies I’ll say money isn’t everything in life. I’ve been much happier working at well paying startups with a great group of people making half the money.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- scarface74 4y ago
  Would you say the same thing coming straight out of college with $0 in your bank account, student loan debt and no experience? As I said in another reply, I could afford to ignore BigTech recruiters at 45 making about as much as a returning intern makes where I work now. I already had the big house in the burbs, retirement savings, a family and a son graduating from high school. I would never tell a new college grad to ignore the same recruiters I did. I could and can take jobs I enjoy, actively run away from promotions, etc.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    At least in a big part of the world, student loan isn't part of the problem when looking for a job straight out of university.
  - mountainriver 4y ago
    100% if you are in a hole, get out of the hole first
  - YZF 4y ago
    It's cultural and personal. I started my career getting paid less but doing fun stuff. I paid my way through university with no debt. I only started to think about money after having kids. i.e. I couldn't care less about myself, and I didn't need a lot of money either, but I did care about my family. I had a great time, and learnt the most, at smaller places and lower paying jobs. Then I also had a great time at some better paying startups. I probably enjoyed my "big tech" better paying jobs the least. All that said, you're generally so much above the average as a software developer that you can't even imagine what most people are struggling with. YMMV
    - krageon 4y ago
      If you paid your way through uni with no debt you most likely didn't graduate recently, which makes your advice to current students (or ones that have recently graduated) not very well aligned with reality.
    - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
      If you're a parent, you probably are long enough out of college that you don't know what most new juniors are getting out of fresh from college. There's very few to no ways to pay your way through university with no debt, these days. Cheap in-state tuition & fees is over 5,000 per semester, not including books, equipment, travel, housing, food, healthcare... When I was still in college, most kids were graduating with debt. Tuition and fees have only gone up since I left. Lots of people I knew who dropped out to try and save for college ended up in dead-end despair jobs.
      - YZF 4y ago
        Well, for one thing not everyone is in the USA. I was not. My older daughter graduated from university. So I do know. But also not in the USA. Does nobody in the US live with their parents while going to university? It's not uncommon where I live for parents to save to pay for their children's education. Believe it or not, the government even gives you money if you do that. EDIT: That said, the US has plenty of good paying software jobs. You can pay back your loans even if you don't work for Google. I'm sure this isn't easy for everyone (especially these days).
- wiseowise 4y ago
  > Having worked at a couple big tech companies I’ll say money isn’t everything in life. That’s because you have enough of it now.
  - mountainriver 4y ago
    I think the point is I would have enough either way
  - kilgnad 4y ago
    Do you have anything constructive to say? I worked at faang for 3 years, donated 90% of what I made to charity before changing my life to work at a place with half the salary. Don't assume things and don't comment here with bland reddit one liners. Only say something if it's constructive.
  - roncesvalles 4y ago
    Hah exactly. I've noticed that people who say "money doesn't matter" either come from a childhood of privilege and have no real concept of value, have earned and spent enough of it to lose sense of its value, or have subconsciously de-valued money as a defense mechanism to cope with the anxiety of not having it. That's not to say that one should work in oppressive conditions or make other people suffer for a little more money; there is nuance. But, seriously. You can't pretend that money doesn't matter.
    - mountainriver 4y ago
      Of course it matters but to a point, I would rather feel happy with the short life I live than miserable so I can buy a fancy car
      - roncesvalles 4y ago
        >so I can buy a fancy car You're assuming that everyone's goal in life is to be happy as defined by material comfort or hedonism but that's just not the case. There are many non-hedonistic things that are enabled by having money (philanthropy and venture capitalism of various forms, freedom of various forms, sense of security, etc.) For such people, because hedonistic happiness is a worthless commodity, trading it for money, and by extension all the non-hedonistic things that money can buy, is a very favorable transaction. It's easy to see why earning more money by sacrificing comfort doesn't make sense to someone who considers happiness as their goal in life -- it's a longer route to reach the same point.
mikebenfield 4y ago
IMO this is 100% right and not just for new grads. The compensation for software engineers is on such a broad spectrum. Even if I think leetcode style questions are completely inane and reveal horrendous values, I'll put up with it for the prospect of double the compensation (or more).
- granshaw 4y ago
  Big tech is not hiring now. Those absurd total comp levels may not be coming back.
  - tnel77 4y ago
    Maybe not. Probably so. Do you have any indication that tech is dead?
    - ethbr0 4y ago
      The amount that Big Tech can afford to pay is correlated to their revenue. The amount that Big Tech is willing to pay is correlated to the market supply of employees. But I'm unconvinced that a very profitable company will decide to pay less than it can afford, in order to acquire the best engineering talent it can, when their revenue is directly linked to their engineering products. The only thing that would make FAANG pay nosedive is if they made an organizational decision that they didn't want to prioritize software development. So basically, if one of them decided to hire an Eddie Lampert type.
      - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
        > I'm unconvinced that a very profitable company will decide to pay less than it can afford They are not o paying maximum of what they cam afford, they are making huge profits. If they are not paying maximum that they can afford what are they paying? Provavly the minimum they think they can get away with. Its all mind games.
        4y ago
greatpostman 4y ago
Yup. It’s FAANG or almost don't become an engineer.
- sirsinsalot 4y ago
  I mean, not really. There are plenty of us making US FAANG salaries outside the US and not at any major tech company. My sample is myself and all my peers. Industry is BIG and the demand for smart people with a track record for getting things done is even bigger. Most years I barely do anything more than basic eng management and my teams build glorified CRUD apps. I'm paid much more than others in the UK because I'm a sure bet. FAANG not required.
  - vehementi 4y ago
    "FAANG" is long outdated for the reasons you say -- I think it's shorthand now for "tech companies that actually pay really well" compared to, say, the public sector, or startups, or small companies that can't afford to, or places that view software development as an unfortunate cost to minimize, etc. In any case, even in that light, the claim of FAANG or don't be an engineer is absurd. Even if someone doesn't end up with a really well paying job it is still a solid career option "especially in this economy"
    - sirsinsalot 4y ago
      In the UK at least the compensation curve is weird. You can be on a team and be paid more than the senior devs above you. You just have to play the game right. Excellent developers are rare in the UK in my experience or hiring. Mediocre ones who think they're excellent are everywhere.
      - vehementi 4y ago
        Yeah with the opaqueness of comp, the same thing can happen in north america too. Someone beside you will be getting massively more RSU grants or something because privately management likes them more. > Mediocre ones who think they're excellent are everywhere. Absolutely
notmars 4y ago
do they? You seem to generalize a bit no? I have 2 grads that are pretty happy with their life and their salary right now, and are starting to look into buying a house. So I'm doubtful it generalize well. You can have pretty good salary in non-FAANGs, make a difference, and match your own software values with what you're doing. I would even argue that by doing so, you're elevating those company, allowing them to then compete a bit more closer to FAANGs comps, and "stealing your talent" away from those less-matching software values, creating what I believe (from my own values) to be a virtuous circle. Or you can grind at FAANGs, accept stack ranking and elevated salary, play the yearly promotion game and end up with a very nice pile of money. Then clearly do not expect them to change, and I would argue: you do not get to complain unless you are actively trying to change them from the inside
- scarface74 4y ago
  I am not complaining. I work for one reason only - to exchange my labor for money to support ny addiction to food and shelter. And let’s not pretend that startups are trying to compete with BigTech. They are just trying to survive long enough to get acquired. Out of all of the companies that YC has founded, how many have gone public? If you are working for a company that has accepted VC money, your “values” don’t amount to much at all. The only values that matter are those of your investor and all they care about is an exit - statistically by getting acquired. The opposite choice is accepting Monopoly money - “equity”. True my unvested RSUs are half what they were at their highs. But at least I can sell them and trade them for real money once they vest every six months. Don’t get me wrong, I spent my entire career from 1996-2020 working for mostly unknown companies working as an “enterprise developer”. The only reason I fell into my current BigTech job is because I both know how to talk to customers and I can create pretty diagrams, PowerPoint slides and a shit ton of yaml and HCL and can develop (cloud consulting department)
lr4444lr 4y ago
Do I understand you correctly? After all that's happened in the last 12 months in Big Tech you tell them to pursue cheap Fed money infused talent hoarding jobs at FAANG companies?
- scarface74 4y ago
  As opposed to working for non profitable startups? The second part is that I tell them to save aggressively and diversify themselves by selling their RSUs as soon as they vest. They wouldn’t use 25% of their cash salary to buy their company stock, why keep your shares once they vest? I sell all of my RSUs within the six months after they vest and diversify I would much rather to have loved and to have lost than to never have loved at all. I used every penny of the after tax difference between my “enterprise job” I had in 2020 and my BigTech job that I got then to “increase my net worth”. If I lost my job , it would have been a good three years.
mlhpdx 4y ago
No. I don’t know how to say it more clearly. The vast majority of people I’ve hired want to be happy, and I have completely qualitative conclusions from having hired such developers for decades: It works well for everyone. If you want a job at FAANG badly enough to suffer it, go for it. But don’t ask me validate “that’s what everyone is doing”. It’s not — you’ve been sold a bill of goods, or you’re greedy. Either way, you be you.
- scarface74 4y ago
  You realize you’re replying to someone who is 49 years old on their 8th job? I’m far from a naive college grad. But I bet you dollars to doughnuts that if I told any of them that they could double their compensation by “grinding LeetCode” they would trade the “equity” in a private company that statistically won’t amount to anything for real stock being in their brokerage account every six months. As far as being “greedy”. Are you running a charity?
  - neilv 4y ago
    And, if they want to live in any of the same locales where FAANG people happen to live, show them `levels.fyi` for FAANG, and tell them those are the people they're going to be competing with condo/house offers and apartment rents. (Well, in addition to the other parties snapping up real estate.) Students might know starting salaries, but maybe not know just how huge the income difference can get in a few years. Nor understand how adversely the relative difference can affect their quality of life.
  - noirbot 4y ago
    Yea, this is an interesting thing. I see plenty of smaller companies still doing the shady stuff that FAANG does and then trying to offer 50% the salary. I'd maybe take that if I was trading money for feeling like I was doing something Good, but if it's just "which privacy violation do I want to support" then you don't really have an advantage to offer me to offset paying me a lot less.
- kyawzazaw 4y ago
  Doesn't that make your sample size very small? > If you want a job at FAANG badly enough to suffer it, I mean, you have to agree, for a lot (if not most) people, the ROI is massive.

mountainriver 4y ago

Having worked at a couple big tech companies I’ll say money isn’t everything in life. I’ve been much happier working at well paying startups with a great group of people making half the money.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
scarface74 4y ago
Would you say the same thing coming straight out of college with $0 in your bank account, student loan debt and no experience? As I said in another reply, I could afford to ignore BigTech recruiters at 45 making about as much as a returning intern makes where I work now. I already had the big house in the burbs, retirement savings, a family and a son graduating from high school. I would never tell a new college grad to ignore the same recruiters I did. I could and can take jobs I enjoy, actively run away from promotions, etc.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  At least in a big part of the world, student loan isn't part of the problem when looking for a job straight out of university.
- mountainriver 4y ago
  100% if you are in a hole, get out of the hole first
- YZF 4y ago
  It's cultural and personal. I started my career getting paid less but doing fun stuff. I paid my way through university with no debt. I only started to think about money after having kids. i.e. I couldn't care less about myself, and I didn't need a lot of money either, but I did care about my family. I had a great time, and learnt the most, at smaller places and lower paying jobs. Then I also had a great time at some better paying startups. I probably enjoyed my "big tech" better paying jobs the least. All that said, you're generally so much above the average as a software developer that you can't even imagine what most people are struggling with. YMMV
  - krageon 4y ago
    If you paid your way through uni with no debt you most likely didn't graduate recently, which makes your advice to current students (or ones that have recently graduated) not very well aligned with reality.
  - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
    If you're a parent, you probably are long enough out of college that you don't know what most new juniors are getting out of fresh from college. There's very few to no ways to pay your way through university with no debt, these days. Cheap in-state tuition & fees is over 5,000 per semester, not including books, equipment, travel, housing, food, healthcare... When I was still in college, most kids were graduating with debt. Tuition and fees have only gone up since I left. Lots of people I knew who dropped out to try and save for college ended up in dead-end despair jobs.
    - YZF 4y ago
      Well, for one thing not everyone is in the USA. I was not. My older daughter graduated from university. So I do know. But also not in the USA. Does nobody in the US live with their parents while going to university? It's not uncommon where I live for parents to save to pay for their children's education. Believe it or not, the government even gives you money if you do that. EDIT: That said, the US has plenty of good paying software jobs. You can pay back your loans even if you don't work for Google. I'm sure this isn't easy for everyone (especially these days).
wiseowise 4y ago
> Having worked at a couple big tech companies I’ll say money isn’t everything in life. That’s because you have enough of it now.
- mountainriver 4y ago
  I think the point is I would have enough either way
- kilgnad 4y ago
  Do you have anything constructive to say? I worked at faang for 3 years, donated 90% of what I made to charity before changing my life to work at a place with half the salary. Don't assume things and don't comment here with bland reddit one liners. Only say something if it's constructive.
- roncesvalles 4y ago
  Hah exactly. I've noticed that people who say "money doesn't matter" either come from a childhood of privilege and have no real concept of value, have earned and spent enough of it to lose sense of its value, or have subconsciously de-valued money as a defense mechanism to cope with the anxiety of not having it. That's not to say that one should work in oppressive conditions or make other people suffer for a little more money; there is nuance. But, seriously. You can't pretend that money doesn't matter.
  - mountainriver 4y ago
    Of course it matters but to a point, I would rather feel happy with the short life I live than miserable so I can buy a fancy car
    - roncesvalles 4y ago
      >so I can buy a fancy car You're assuming that everyone's goal in life is to be happy as defined by material comfort or hedonism but that's just not the case. There are many non-hedonistic things that are enabled by having money (philanthropy and venture capitalism of various forms, freedom of various forms, sense of security, etc.) For such people, because hedonistic happiness is a worthless commodity, trading it for money, and by extension all the non-hedonistic things that money can buy, is a very favorable transaction. It's easy to see why earning more money by sacrificing comfort doesn't make sense to someone who considers happiness as their goal in life -- it's a longer route to reach the same point.

mikebenfield 4y ago

IMO this is 100% right and not just for new grads. The compensation for software engineers is on such a broad spectrum. Even if I think leetcode style questions are completely inane and reveal horrendous values, I'll put up with it for the prospect of double the compensation (or more).

granshaw 4y ago
Big tech is not hiring now. Those absurd total comp levels may not be coming back.
- tnel77 4y ago
  Maybe not. Probably so. Do you have any indication that tech is dead?
  - ethbr0 4y ago
    The amount that Big Tech can afford to pay is correlated to their revenue. The amount that Big Tech is willing to pay is correlated to the market supply of employees. But I'm unconvinced that a very profitable company will decide to pay less than it can afford, in order to acquire the best engineering talent it can, when their revenue is directly linked to their engineering products. The only thing that would make FAANG pay nosedive is if they made an organizational decision that they didn't want to prioritize software development. So basically, if one of them decided to hire an Eddie Lampert type.
    - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
      > I'm unconvinced that a very profitable company will decide to pay less than it can afford They are not o paying maximum of what they cam afford, they are making huge profits. If they are not paying maximum that they can afford what are they paying? Provavly the minimum they think they can get away with. Its all mind games.
      - 4y ago

greatpostman 4y ago

Yup. It’s FAANG or almost don't become an engineer.

sirsinsalot 4y ago
I mean, not really. There are plenty of us making US FAANG salaries outside the US and not at any major tech company. My sample is myself and all my peers. Industry is BIG and the demand for smart people with a track record for getting things done is even bigger. Most years I barely do anything more than basic eng management and my teams build glorified CRUD apps. I'm paid much more than others in the UK because I'm a sure bet. FAANG not required.
- vehementi 4y ago
  "FAANG" is long outdated for the reasons you say -- I think it's shorthand now for "tech companies that actually pay really well" compared to, say, the public sector, or startups, or small companies that can't afford to, or places that view software development as an unfortunate cost to minimize, etc. In any case, even in that light, the claim of FAANG or don't be an engineer is absurd. Even if someone doesn't end up with a really well paying job it is still a solid career option "especially in this economy"
  - sirsinsalot 4y ago
    In the UK at least the compensation curve is weird. You can be on a team and be paid more than the senior devs above you. You just have to play the game right. Excellent developers are rare in the UK in my experience or hiring. Mediocre ones who think they're excellent are everywhere.
    - vehementi 4y ago
      Yeah with the opaqueness of comp, the same thing can happen in north america too. Someone beside you will be getting massively more RSU grants or something because privately management likes them more. > Mediocre ones who think they're excellent are everywhere. Absolutely

notmars 4y ago

do they? You seem to generalize a bit no? I have 2 grads that are pretty happy with their life and their salary right now, and are starting to look into buying a house. So I'm doubtful it generalize well. You can have pretty good salary in non-FAANGs, make a difference, and match your own software values with what you're doing. I would even argue that by doing so, you're elevating those company, allowing them to then compete a bit more closer to FAANGs comps, and "stealing your talent" away from those less-matching software values, creating what I believe (from my own values) to be a virtuous circle. Or you can grind at FAANGs, accept stack ranking and elevated salary, play the yearly promotion game and end up with a very nice pile of money. Then clearly do not expect them to change, and I would argue: you do not get to complain unless you are actively trying to change them from the inside

scarface74 4y ago
I am not complaining. I work for one reason only - to exchange my labor for money to support ny addiction to food and shelter. And let’s not pretend that startups are trying to compete with BigTech. They are just trying to survive long enough to get acquired. Out of all of the companies that YC has founded, how many have gone public? If you are working for a company that has accepted VC money, your “values” don’t amount to much at all. The only values that matter are those of your investor and all they care about is an exit - statistically by getting acquired. The opposite choice is accepting Monopoly money - “equity”. True my unvested RSUs are half what they were at their highs. But at least I can sell them and trade them for real money once they vest every six months. Don’t get me wrong, I spent my entire career from 1996-2020 working for mostly unknown companies working as an “enterprise developer”. The only reason I fell into my current BigTech job is because I both know how to talk to customers and I can create pretty diagrams, PowerPoint slides and a shit ton of yaml and HCL and can develop (cloud consulting department)

lr4444lr 4y ago

Do I understand you correctly? After all that's happened in the last 12 months in Big Tech you tell them to pursue cheap Fed money infused talent hoarding jobs at FAANG companies?

scarface74 4y ago
As opposed to working for non profitable startups? The second part is that I tell them to save aggressively and diversify themselves by selling their RSUs as soon as they vest. They wouldn’t use 25% of their cash salary to buy their company stock, why keep your shares once they vest? I sell all of my RSUs within the six months after they vest and diversify I would much rather to have loved and to have lost than to never have loved at all. I used every penny of the after tax difference between my “enterprise job” I had in 2020 and my BigTech job that I got then to “increase my net worth”. If I lost my job , it would have been a good three years.

mlhpdx 4y ago

No. I don’t know how to say it more clearly. The vast majority of people I’ve hired want to be happy, and I have completely qualitative conclusions from having hired such developers for decades: It works well for everyone. If you want a job at FAANG badly enough to suffer it, go for it. But don’t ask me validate “that’s what everyone is doing”. It’s not — you’ve been sold a bill of goods, or you’re greedy. Either way, you be you.

scarface74 4y ago
You realize you’re replying to someone who is 49 years old on their 8th job? I’m far from a naive college grad. But I bet you dollars to doughnuts that if I told any of them that they could double their compensation by “grinding LeetCode” they would trade the “equity” in a private company that statistically won’t amount to anything for real stock being in their brokerage account every six months. As far as being “greedy”. Are you running a charity?
- neilv 4y ago
  And, if they want to live in any of the same locales where FAANG people happen to live, show them `levels.fyi` for FAANG, and tell them those are the people they're going to be competing with condo/house offers and apartment rents. (Well, in addition to the other parties snapping up real estate.) Students might know starting salaries, but maybe not know just how huge the income difference can get in a few years. Nor understand how adversely the relative difference can affect their quality of life.
- noirbot 4y ago
  Yea, this is an interesting thing. I see plenty of smaller companies still doing the shady stuff that FAANG does and then trying to offer 50% the salary. I'd maybe take that if I was trading money for feeling like I was doing something Good, but if it's just "which privacy violation do I want to support" then you don't really have an advantage to offer me to offset paying me a lot less.
kyawzazaw 4y ago
Doesn't that make your sample size very small? > If you want a job at FAANG badly enough to suffer it, I mean, you have to agree, for a lot (if not most) people, the ROI is massive.