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You should look up Switzerland's gun laws and intentional homicide rate if you think so. That is a far more complex issue which is far deeper than such a simpl

You should look up Switzerland's gun laws and intentional homicide rate if you think so. That is a far more complex issue which is far deeper than such a simple correlation.

izacus 4y ago
Switzerland is top of Europe in gun homicide rates with about 5x the EU average. You might not be making an example in support of an argument you think you're making ;P
- hyperhopper 4y ago
  Yeah, and if you ban blue cars, blue cars will crash less and you'll see more red cars crash. I specifically said "intentional homicide rate" for a reason, to get ahead of this ridiculous argument that people bring up despite it not holding up or being relevant. I don't care how the homicide happens, I care that a homicide happened. And despite lots of guns, it doesn't happen a lot in Switzerland compared to the world or even other EU countries. Clearly, guns aren't the problem, the other factors play into it more.
- concordDance 4y ago
  But it also has a murder rate less than half of France's. The people who use guns to kill in Switzerland instead use knives or other objects in France. (I am admittedly cheating a bit, as Switzerland lacks the high crime subpopulations that France has)
- talideon 4y ago
  TBF, much of that is down to suicides, as Switzerland has a much higher rate of suicide by gun than other countries. The general gun homicide rate once they're omitted isn't quite so crazy.
  - briHass 4y ago
    Same in the US, of course. Suicide by gun counted as 'gun violence' is the classic disingenuous deception. Remove those and gang violence (primarily against rival gangs), and the numbers don't look that scary, which is the issue for those with an agenda.
    - bigDinosaur 4y ago
      From an international perspective, most reporting about gun control being a big issue in the US appears to come from mass shootings, not the misc. causes such as gang activity or suicides.
      - ericd 4y ago
        If you look into the stats that reporting typically uses, I've found that mass shootings are frequently defined differently than they're popularly thought of (I believe gang violence is frequently included), and suicides are frequently included in the overall violence stats.
talideon 4y ago
For the curious, in Switzerland, you don't keep ammo at home, there's proper registration of weapons with proper background checks, and it's treated more as a means of national defense, so having lots of guns is going to get you odd looks from people. Guns aren't seen as something for personal defense: that's the job of the police. In other words, Switzerland has a much healthier attitude towards gun ownership and usage.
- Tainnor 4y ago
  It's not just the attitude, it's also the sheer number of guns: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_g... The US is so far ahead of every other country, including Switzerland, that the argument "it works for the Swiss people" makes no sense.
- suddenclarity 4y ago
  Isn't that that the argument from pro gun people? It's people and the culture, not the guns. See Sweden for an interesting example. One of Europe's highest gun ownership with little gun violence back in the day. Then it changed and it's now a daily occurrence with gang shootings while the number of legal guns was reduced.
- akomtu 4y ago
  Switzerland has a more traditional, not healthier, relationship between the people and the state: the people are subjects who are given tiny freedoms, but are kept on tight leash, because the state has a deep distrust of its people. The abberation with guns is just insecurity of the state: it's small and needs its people to act as part-time military in reserve. If it had a bigger military, the fake gun rights would disappear overnight.
  - talideon 4y ago
    Ah, do you have even the slightest clue about Switzerland?! I mean, it's quite impressive how you seem to have confused Switzerland for a highly centralised country with a distant political structure. Could you go and do some research on the country before you comment on it? > If it had a bigger military, the fake gun rights would disappear overnight. The Swiss military is _huge_ for its size. It has one of the largest militaries per capita in the world.
dmix 4y ago
There's also no national statistics collected in either the US or Canada on whether murders/crimes involving firearms are 'legal' or not. Which is relevant to these debates and you'd think would be of interest to authorities.
seanmcdirmid 4y ago
Switzerland had a huge suicide problem (well by their standards) so they locked up the militia ammunition in communities for the guns Swiss militia members were sent home with. Also, Switzerland is basically where the USA would be if the first clause of the second amendment was meaningful.

You should look up Switzerland's gun laws and intentional homicide rate if you think so. That is a far more complex issue which is far deeper than such a simple correlation.

izacus 4y ago

Switzerland is top of Europe in gun homicide rates with about 5x the EU average. You might not be making an example in support of an argument you think you're making ;P

hyperhopper 4y ago
Yeah, and if you ban blue cars, blue cars will crash less and you'll see more red cars crash. I specifically said "intentional homicide rate" for a reason, to get ahead of this ridiculous argument that people bring up despite it not holding up or being relevant. I don't care how the homicide happens, I care that a homicide happened. And despite lots of guns, it doesn't happen a lot in Switzerland compared to the world or even other EU countries. Clearly, guns aren't the problem, the other factors play into it more.
concordDance 4y ago
But it also has a murder rate less than half of France's. The people who use guns to kill in Switzerland instead use knives or other objects in France. (I am admittedly cheating a bit, as Switzerland lacks the high crime subpopulations that France has)
talideon 4y ago
TBF, much of that is down to suicides, as Switzerland has a much higher rate of suicide by gun than other countries. The general gun homicide rate once they're omitted isn't quite so crazy.
- briHass 4y ago
  Same in the US, of course. Suicide by gun counted as 'gun violence' is the classic disingenuous deception. Remove those and gang violence (primarily against rival gangs), and the numbers don't look that scary, which is the issue for those with an agenda.
  - bigDinosaur 4y ago
    From an international perspective, most reporting about gun control being a big issue in the US appears to come from mass shootings, not the misc. causes such as gang activity or suicides.
    - ericd 4y ago
      If you look into the stats that reporting typically uses, I've found that mass shootings are frequently defined differently than they're popularly thought of (I believe gang violence is frequently included), and suicides are frequently included in the overall violence stats.

talideon 4y ago

For the curious, in Switzerland, you don't keep ammo at home, there's proper registration of weapons with proper background checks, and it's treated more as a means of national defense, so having lots of guns is going to get you odd looks from people. Guns aren't seen as something for personal defense: that's the job of the police. In other words, Switzerland has a much healthier attitude towards gun ownership and usage.

Tainnor 4y ago
It's not just the attitude, it's also the sheer number of guns: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_g... The US is so far ahead of every other country, including Switzerland, that the argument "it works for the Swiss people" makes no sense.
suddenclarity 4y ago
Isn't that that the argument from pro gun people? It's people and the culture, not the guns. See Sweden for an interesting example. One of Europe's highest gun ownership with little gun violence back in the day. Then it changed and it's now a daily occurrence with gang shootings while the number of legal guns was reduced.
akomtu 4y ago
Switzerland has a more traditional, not healthier, relationship between the people and the state: the people are subjects who are given tiny freedoms, but are kept on tight leash, because the state has a deep distrust of its people. The abberation with guns is just insecurity of the state: it's small and needs its people to act as part-time military in reserve. If it had a bigger military, the fake gun rights would disappear overnight.
- talideon 4y ago
  Ah, do you have even the slightest clue about Switzerland?! I mean, it's quite impressive how you seem to have confused Switzerland for a highly centralised country with a distant political structure. Could you go and do some research on the country before you comment on it? > If it had a bigger military, the fake gun rights would disappear overnight. The Swiss military is _huge_ for its size. It has one of the largest militaries per capita in the world.

dmix 4y ago

There's also no national statistics collected in either the US or Canada on whether murders/crimes involving firearms are 'legal' or not. Which is relevant to these debates and you'd think would be of interest to authorities.

seanmcdirmid 4y ago

Switzerland had a huge suicide problem (well by their standards) so they locked up the militia ammunition in communities for the guns Swiss militia members were sent home with. Also, Switzerland is basically where the USA would be if the first clause of the second amendment was meaningful.