7 ms·

I shopped at their location at 30 rock. It was a mixed bag feeling. I was in awe of the technology, but at the same time I felt like I was being overly observed

by nomy99 4y ago

I shopped at their location at 30 rock. It was a mixed bag feeling. I was in awe of the technology, but at the same time I felt like I was being overly observed like in a prison.. I never went back, even though I work in the building.

crazygringo 4y ago
In basically every retail store, and especially grocery/convenience stores, you are being observed by security cameras at literally every second. In every aisle. This has been the case for decades. It's how they catch shoplifters. I rather like the fact it can be used for customer convenience now, rather than just punitively.
- Someone1234 4y ago
  In typical stores (e.g. Walmart, Target, etc), most of those cameras housings don't contain cameras. The main issue isn't that cameras are expensive, it is that monitoring that many cameras is expensive/impractical, and automated theft detection systems are still in their infancy. So they just target high value/common areas, and rely on deterrents (like people believing they have a lot of cameras, off-duty cops at the door, and PR around some super secret new technology). Quite seriously: Stores really need to look into vending machines for certain items. In particular with how advanced Gift Card Theft-Clone-Return Activation fraud is. Thieves have message-boards not dissimilar to this where they can share "pro-tips," and things have become quite sophisticated.
  - crazygringo 4y ago
    > most of those cameras housings don't contain cameras Do you have a source for that? Because at my local grocery store for example, above the customer service area they have a whole wall of TV's showing the live camera feeds. They're all working. My local convenience store has the live TV's too, by the cashier.
    - hotstickyballs 4y ago
      That’s not evidence that all the camera housings are populated. You’re only seeing the ones with live feeds.
    - Someone1234 4y ago
      > Do you have a source for that? I know people who work there. Your average Walmart has hundreds of camera housings. Every single aisle has a couple. The amount of cabling alone to populate them all simply doesn't exist (as you can often see, it is an open-box ceiling), and monitoring that many cameras is impractical (in particular for a store staffed at BARELY sustainable levels). Just look at how understaffed the floor of these stores are, then ask yourself why they'd have a disproportionate number of loss-prevention staff working relative to the floor staff. A big store absolutely will have tens of cameras, but even all those may only have a single person for all (or zero persons depending on shifts/staffing). That being said: Some stores have legitimately rolled out facial recognition to pick up known thieves as they enter the store. But that requires four-ish cameras and the technology is pretty turn-key.
      - b3morales 4y ago
        > monitoring that many cameras is impractical Regardless of how many there are, I believe the point is not to monitor them live but to have recordings if the store wants to bring charges for something.
      - dumpsterlid 4y ago
        [dead]
      - wiseleo 4y ago
        There are systems to follow the subject. I configured my work’s cameras to show a few key cameras on the live feed, but several more are quietly recording. When we review the footage, I can follow a subject across my entire array of cameras. I can track someone from the point they enter the parking lot with a plate camera. I had facial recognition in a nightclub over a decade ago. Modern cameras’ capabilities are scary.
    - 4y ago
  - fmajid 4y ago
    From what I've read of Amazon Go's technology, literally every square inch of ceiling in them is occupied by some piece of technology to implement the cashierless checkout.
  - Nextgrid 4y ago
    > In particular with how advanced Gift Card Theft-Clone-Return Activation fraud is Completely self-inflicted problem, happy to see such schadenfreude unfold. There's already a gift card that's pretty much immune to fraud (or at the very least makes fraud the bank's problem): money. Gift cards are horrible waste and scam and ultimately only benefit the store at the expense of the buyer or the recipient of the card - you're turning good, actual cash, in something that's less valuable because now it has usage restrictions on them.
- tchock23 4y ago
  I was on a jury for larceny from a Target. The footage they showed from so many points around the store made me feel creeped out with every store I go into now.
  - justeleblanc 4y ago
    Larceny goes to a jury where you live?
    - CydeWeys 4y ago
      It's a criminal charge, so yes, according to the Sixth Amendment it could go to a jury trial in any jurisdiction.
      - justeleblanc 4y ago
        I guess you mean in any jurisdiction in the US. Where I live, jury trials are for the highest level of crimes (the translation would be felony I guess).
        CydeWeys 4y ago
        I'm not sure this clarification is necessary as we're in a discussion about NYC, on a US-based website, and the Sixth Amendment to the US Constitution obviously applies within the US but not to other countries.
      - ryandrake 4y ago
        Maybe I've been living in California for too long, but I'm kind of shocked/confused at how someone stealing from a Target would go all the way to a jury trial. Surely the amount stolen was less than the cost of the police's time, the legal system, judges, attorneys, clerks, jurors, and so on. It would be more cost effective to simply have the local government reimburse Target for the loss.
        jrockway 4y ago
- mariojv 4y ago
  One example of this from a quick search: https://privacysos.org/blog/target-is-really-really-into-surveillance/ https://privacysos.org/blog/target-is-really-really-into-sur... More information on some of Target's loss prevention techniques: https://www.businessinsider.com/target-employees-say-store-doesnt-stop-all-shoplifters-2020-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/target-employees-say-store-d... (Archive link: https://archive.is/wRol8 https://archive.is/wRol8) I'd heard that they wait until losses reach above the felony threshold before prosecuting, documenting what particular individuals are stealing. Several videos about this had gone viral, and I'd heard about it from a friend but never looked into it until now. From the Business Insider interview with several anonymous employees, though, the intent of the surveillance is more to catch high volume thieves, employees stealing, and career shoplifters, rather than folks stealing a few necessities. I could see most of their prosecutions rising to the felony threshold because of this tactic, since high volume is likely to cross the dollar amount for a felony. In other words, the intent is not being punitive for the sake of it, but actual loss prevention. I tend to believe the anonymous sources, because they have nothing to gain from talking anonymously with the reporter, versus the influencers who are trying to accumulate followers. It's not a Les Miserables type situation. A lot of the commenters on one particular video linked from the article seem to be pro-shoplifting, even without need, so there is to some extent people believing what they want to believe: https://www.tiktok.com/@jodessy/video/6899962247590743301 https://www.tiktok.com/@jodessy/video/6899962247590743301 Examples: "All I'm hearing is I have $499 in store credit" - 1700 likes "I'm sorry but what?? I've stolen CELL PHONES from target" - 242 likes "I def stole over $20k including but not limited to laptops, jbl speakers, ... only got probation so jokes on them!" - 103 likes Anyway, I just thought I'd share this even though it's only tangentially related to the story since I'd just previously believed the viral rumor without really looking into it.
- luckylion 4y ago
  The constant filming from every angle is what makes me even more confused when you need to personally tell employees that something is broken somewhere, or the queue for the cash register is miles long, or some sales point isn't staffed and has people waiting. Everything is being watched, why aren't they reacting proactively?
  - AnthonyMouse 4y ago
    Large corporations assign people roles. The person watching the cameras is there to detect shoplifting. They have no stake in the success of the store. If you want to see a shopkeeper care about that sort of thing, patronize an owner-operated small business.
    - luckylion 4y ago
      I don't know about small, but the store I usually shop at is owner-operated (though part of a owner-coop in Germany), but they don't do it. I get the point of shoplifting watchers not caring about queues, but am I just naive that this should be easy enough to solve with tech? You have lots of images from multiple directions, you know how the store looks empty, you can probably do a decent-enough image discovery to find out roughly where people are. If there are 15 people in front of the checkout, ring a small bell somewhere and have a person check whether it's time to open another checkout. I can shop, scan the products while I walk through the shop with my phone, pay with the app and open a gate to bet let out with my purchased goods, but the computer can't use the camera signal to figure out how where people are?
      - AnthonyMouse 4y ago
        The tech is redundant. The people working in the store can see with their eyes how long the queue is. They don't need a machine to ring a bell. They have a brain. But not an incentive to use it.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    Because the person watching is performing a specific task, not every task.
- vlovich123 4y ago
  And yet everything is now behind locked glass at the pharmacy. I doubt the cameras are that good at catching shoplifters.
  - harvey9 4y ago
    There's a tipping point where it's cheaper to employ staff to get stuff out of a cabinet than to catch all the people stealing.
    - tiedieconderoga 4y ago
      Sure, but it's very strange when that threshhold seems to be in the $2-4 range. Some US cities, you show up for a conference or something, walk to the corner store across from your hotel, and find that all of the toothbrushes and bags of trail mix are locked away. How little are they paying these people who are doing the unlocking, that it's worthwhile for such small items?
      - harvey9 4y ago
        I'd speculate they are doing some balance of what gets stolen the most, and price. But I'm in the UK and I mostly see higher priced items like brand name razor blades getting locked away.
      - seattletarget 4y ago
        You recently shopped at the Seattle Target by the market, too?
  - mynameisvlad 4y ago
    The liability equation is massively different on the pharmacy side where there are strict penalties involved with distributing controlled OTC meds even, let alone prescriptions and controlled prescriptions. Nobody is going to come down and slap a fine on you for having a dozen cameras stolen. They very certainly will if that cough syrup wasn’t distributed correctly.
- bentcorner 4y ago
  If you go into one of the Amazon grocery stores there's cameras literally every foot, possibly less. Way more than a traditional grocery store. I don't know what exactly Amazon is trying to do though. Their prices aren't competitive and the "don't mess around with checking out" benefits aren't exactly a huge time saver, self checkout is a solved problem and doesn't take a ton of time. Not being able to immediately see your receipt on exit is also a big downside - they charged me for something I put back on the shelf which makes me not want to go there either, I need to remember to check my receipt at some unknown later point in time and try to match it up with stuff that has probably already been put away. All around IMO it's a worse grocery store to go to.
kirykl 4y ago
If you don’t disallow Bluetooth lots of retailers track secretly that way, using beacons
alden5 4y ago
it's interesting yea, they keep track of what you pick up and put back and sell that data to the company of the product you decided not to buy, its an opt out program thats really hard to find.

by nomy99 4y ago

crazygringo 4y ago

In basically every retail store, and especially grocery/convenience stores, you are being observed by security cameras at literally every second. In every aisle. This has been the case for decades. It's how they catch shoplifters. I rather like the fact it can be used for customer convenience now, rather than just punitively.

Someone1234 4y ago
In typical stores (e.g. Walmart, Target, etc), most of those cameras housings don't contain cameras. The main issue isn't that cameras are expensive, it is that monitoring that many cameras is expensive/impractical, and automated theft detection systems are still in their infancy. So they just target high value/common areas, and rely on deterrents (like people believing they have a lot of cameras, off-duty cops at the door, and PR around some super secret new technology). Quite seriously: Stores really need to look into vending machines for certain items. In particular with how advanced Gift Card Theft-Clone-Return Activation fraud is. Thieves have message-boards not dissimilar to this where they can share "pro-tips," and things have become quite sophisticated.
- crazygringo 4y ago
  > most of those cameras housings don't contain cameras Do you have a source for that? Because at my local grocery store for example, above the customer service area they have a whole wall of TV's showing the live camera feeds. They're all working. My local convenience store has the live TV's too, by the cashier.
  - hotstickyballs 4y ago
    That’s not evidence that all the camera housings are populated. You’re only seeing the ones with live feeds.
  - Someone1234 4y ago
    > Do you have a source for that? I know people who work there. Your average Walmart has hundreds of camera housings. Every single aisle has a couple. The amount of cabling alone to populate them all simply doesn't exist (as you can often see, it is an open-box ceiling), and monitoring that many cameras is impractical (in particular for a store staffed at BARELY sustainable levels). Just look at how understaffed the floor of these stores are, then ask yourself why they'd have a disproportionate number of loss-prevention staff working relative to the floor staff. A big store absolutely will have tens of cameras, but even all those may only have a single person for all (or zero persons depending on shifts/staffing). That being said: Some stores have legitimately rolled out facial recognition to pick up known thieves as they enter the store. But that requires four-ish cameras and the technology is pretty turn-key.
    - b3morales 4y ago
      > monitoring that many cameras is impractical Regardless of how many there are, I believe the point is not to monitor them live but to have recordings if the store wants to bring charges for something.
    - dumpsterlid 4y ago
      [dead]
    - wiseleo 4y ago
      There are systems to follow the subject. I configured my work’s cameras to show a few key cameras on the live feed, but several more are quietly recording. When we review the footage, I can follow a subject across my entire array of cameras. I can track someone from the point they enter the parking lot with a plate camera. I had facial recognition in a nightclub over a decade ago. Modern cameras’ capabilities are scary.
  - 4y ago
- fmajid 4y ago
  From what I've read of Amazon Go's technology, literally every square inch of ceiling in them is occupied by some piece of technology to implement the cashierless checkout.
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  > In particular with how advanced Gift Card Theft-Clone-Return Activation fraud is Completely self-inflicted problem, happy to see such schadenfreude unfold. There's already a gift card that's pretty much immune to fraud (or at the very least makes fraud the bank's problem): money. Gift cards are horrible waste and scam and ultimately only benefit the store at the expense of the buyer or the recipient of the card - you're turning good, actual cash, in something that's less valuable because now it has usage restrictions on them.
tchock23 4y ago
I was on a jury for larceny from a Target. The footage they showed from so many points around the store made me feel creeped out with every store I go into now.
- justeleblanc 4y ago
  Larceny goes to a jury where you live?
  - CydeWeys 4y ago
    It's a criminal charge, so yes, according to the Sixth Amendment it could go to a jury trial in any jurisdiction.
    - justeleblanc 4y ago
      I guess you mean in any jurisdiction in the US. Where I live, jury trials are for the highest level of crimes (the translation would be felony I guess).
      - CydeWeys 4y ago
        I'm not sure this clarification is necessary as we're in a discussion about NYC, on a US-based website, and the Sixth Amendment to the US Constitution obviously applies within the US but not to other countries.
    - ryandrake 4y ago
      Maybe I've been living in California for too long, but I'm kind of shocked/confused at how someone stealing from a Target would go all the way to a jury trial. Surely the amount stolen was less than the cost of the police's time, the legal system, judges, attorneys, clerks, jurors, and so on. It would be more cost effective to simply have the local government reimburse Target for the loss.
      - jrockway 4y ago
mariojv 4y ago
One example of this from a quick search: https://privacysos.org/blog/target-is-really-really-into-surveillance/ https://privacysos.org/blog/target-is-really-really-into-sur... More information on some of Target's loss prevention techniques: https://www.businessinsider.com/target-employees-say-store-doesnt-stop-all-shoplifters-2020-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/target-employees-say-store-d... (Archive link: https://archive.is/wRol8 https://archive.is/wRol8) I'd heard that they wait until losses reach above the felony threshold before prosecuting, documenting what particular individuals are stealing. Several videos about this had gone viral, and I'd heard about it from a friend but never looked into it until now. From the Business Insider interview with several anonymous employees, though, the intent of the surveillance is more to catch high volume thieves, employees stealing, and career shoplifters, rather than folks stealing a few necessities. I could see most of their prosecutions rising to the felony threshold because of this tactic, since high volume is likely to cross the dollar amount for a felony. In other words, the intent is not being punitive for the sake of it, but actual loss prevention. I tend to believe the anonymous sources, because they have nothing to gain from talking anonymously with the reporter, versus the influencers who are trying to accumulate followers. It's not a Les Miserables type situation. A lot of the commenters on one particular video linked from the article seem to be pro-shoplifting, even without need, so there is to some extent people believing what they want to believe: https://www.tiktok.com/@jodessy/video/6899962247590743301 https://www.tiktok.com/@jodessy/video/6899962247590743301 Examples: "All I'm hearing is I have $499 in store credit" - 1700 likes "I'm sorry but what?? I've stolen CELL PHONES from target" - 242 likes "I def stole over $20k including but not limited to laptops, jbl speakers, ... only got probation so jokes on them!" - 103 likes Anyway, I just thought I'd share this even though it's only tangentially related to the story since I'd just previously believed the viral rumor without really looking into it.
luckylion 4y ago
The constant filming from every angle is what makes me even more confused when you need to personally tell employees that something is broken somewhere, or the queue for the cash register is miles long, or some sales point isn't staffed and has people waiting. Everything is being watched, why aren't they reacting proactively?
- AnthonyMouse 4y ago
  Large corporations assign people roles. The person watching the cameras is there to detect shoplifting. They have no stake in the success of the store. If you want to see a shopkeeper care about that sort of thing, patronize an owner-operated small business.
  - luckylion 4y ago
    I don't know about small, but the store I usually shop at is owner-operated (though part of a owner-coop in Germany), but they don't do it. I get the point of shoplifting watchers not caring about queues, but am I just naive that this should be easy enough to solve with tech? You have lots of images from multiple directions, you know how the store looks empty, you can probably do a decent-enough image discovery to find out roughly where people are. If there are 15 people in front of the checkout, ring a small bell somewhere and have a person check whether it's time to open another checkout. I can shop, scan the products while I walk through the shop with my phone, pay with the app and open a gate to bet let out with my purchased goods, but the computer can't use the camera signal to figure out how where people are?
    - AnthonyMouse 4y ago
      The tech is redundant. The people working in the store can see with their eyes how long the queue is. They don't need a machine to ring a bell. They have a brain. But not an incentive to use it.
- kube-system 4y ago
  Because the person watching is performing a specific task, not every task.
vlovich123 4y ago
And yet everything is now behind locked glass at the pharmacy. I doubt the cameras are that good at catching shoplifters.
- harvey9 4y ago
  There's a tipping point where it's cheaper to employ staff to get stuff out of a cabinet than to catch all the people stealing.
  - tiedieconderoga 4y ago
    Sure, but it's very strange when that threshhold seems to be in the $2-4 range. Some US cities, you show up for a conference or something, walk to the corner store across from your hotel, and find that all of the toothbrushes and bags of trail mix are locked away. How little are they paying these people who are doing the unlocking, that it's worthwhile for such small items?
    - harvey9 4y ago
      I'd speculate they are doing some balance of what gets stolen the most, and price. But I'm in the UK and I mostly see higher priced items like brand name razor blades getting locked away.
    - seattletarget 4y ago
      You recently shopped at the Seattle Target by the market, too?
- mynameisvlad 4y ago
  The liability equation is massively different on the pharmacy side where there are strict penalties involved with distributing controlled OTC meds even, let alone prescriptions and controlled prescriptions. Nobody is going to come down and slap a fine on you for having a dozen cameras stolen. They very certainly will if that cough syrup wasn’t distributed correctly.
bentcorner 4y ago
If you go into one of the Amazon grocery stores there's cameras literally every foot, possibly less. Way more than a traditional grocery store. I don't know what exactly Amazon is trying to do though. Their prices aren't competitive and the "don't mess around with checking out" benefits aren't exactly a huge time saver, self checkout is a solved problem and doesn't take a ton of time. Not being able to immediately see your receipt on exit is also a big downside - they charged me for something I put back on the shelf which makes me not want to go there either, I need to remember to check my receipt at some unknown later point in time and try to match it up with stuff that has probably already been put away. All around IMO it's a worse grocery store to go to.

kirykl 4y ago

If you don’t disallow Bluetooth lots of retailers track secretly that way, using beacons

alden5 4y ago

it's interesting yea, they keep track of what you pick up and put back and sell that data to the company of the product you decided not to buy, its an opt out program thats really hard to find.